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Thread: unit types

  1. #1
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default unit types

    ((that's for anyone with intimate knowlege of EB mechanics)
    I just want to know: exactly how many entries are in the EDU EB
    and how many evntries are there in the DMB in EB? I was told I had enough to do what I wanted, but....

    I just want o know how many units I can add (I'd like to add 7 units, with 2 sharing the princ. model, 1 with the thureophoroi, one with a late era triarii, one keeps its origional skeleton, and one shares a file with the haploi.) yet my game keeps crashing while loading (well at least it affect only MP EB-trivial script. I do have backups-so no worries here). here are the part of the EDU with the offending units(don't be angry over the italians in this addition):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ;7
    type ETRUSCAN_HASTATI
    dictionary ETRUSCAN_HASTATI ; ETRUSCAN_HASTATI
    category infantry
    class light
    voice_type General_1
    soldier ETRUSCAN_HASTATI, 30, 0, 0.4
    officer officer_roman_early_centurion
    officer officer_roman_early_standard
    mount_effect elephant -12, camel -4, horse -6
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, square
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 15, 6, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
    stat_pri_attr prec,thrown,thrown ap
    stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 9, 21, 5, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 6, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 25
    stat_fire_delay -55000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1025, 286, 50, 70, 1145
    ownership seleucid, slave, greek_cities, thrace, macedon, egypt

    ;8
    type LUCAN_HASTATI
    dictionary LUCAN_HASTATI ; LUCAN_HASTATI
    category infantry
    class light
    voice_type General_1
    soldier LUCAN_HASTATI, 30, 0, 0.4
    officer officer_roman_early_centurion
    officer officer_roman_early_standard
    mount_effect elephant -12, camel -4, horse -6
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, square
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 15, 6, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
    stat_pri_attr prec,thrown,thrown ap
    stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 6, 20, 5, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 6, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 25
    stat_fire_delay -55000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1025, 286, 50, 70, 1145
    ownership seleucid, slave, greek_cities, thrace, macedon, egypt

    ;9
    type LUCANIAN_HOPLITES
    dictionary LUCANIAN_HOPLITES ; LUCAN_HOPLITES
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type General_1
    soldier LUCAN_SPEARMEN, 15, 0, 0.45
    officer officer_hellenic_officer
    officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
    mount_effect horse +2, camel +1, elephant -2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
    formation 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, square, shield_wall
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 3, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.125
    stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_8
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 9, 21, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 2, -4, -10, -2
    stat_mental 6, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 1
    stat_fire_delay 60000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1992, 423, 60, 90, 2092
    ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, seleucid, egypt, slave

    ;6
    type UMBRIAN_HASTATI
    dictionary UMBRIAN_HASTATI ; UMBRIAN_HASTATI
    category infantry
    class light
    voice_type General_1
    soldier UMBRIAN_HASTATI, 30, 0, 0.4
    officer officer_roman_early_centurion
    officer officer_roman_early_standard
    mount_effect elephant -12, camel -4, horse -6
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, square
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 15, 6, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
    stat_pri_attr prec,thrown,thrown ap
    stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
    stat_sec_attr ap
    stat_pri_armour 7, 21, 5, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 6, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 25
    stat_fire_delay -55000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1025, 286, 50, 70, 1145
    ownership seleucid, slave, greek_cities, thrace, macedon, egypt

    ;2
    type UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN
    dictionary UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN ; UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type General_1
    soldier UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN, 15, 0, 0.45
    officer officer_hellenic_officer
    officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
    mount_effect horse +2, camel +1, elephant -2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
    formation 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, square, shield_wall
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 3, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.125
    stat_pri_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_6
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 12, 21, 7, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 2, -4, -10, -2
    stat_mental 6, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 1
    stat_fire_delay 60000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1992, 383, 60, 90, 2092
    ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, seleucid, egypt, slave

    ;1
    type PICENIAN_PRINCIPES
    dictionary PICENIAN_PRINCIPES ; Picenian Principes
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General_1
    soldier PICENIAN_PRINCIPES, 30, 0, 0.44
    officer officer_roman_early_centurion
    officer officer_roman_early_standard
    mount_effect elephant -12, horse -2, camel -2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, square
    stat_health 2, 0
    stat_pri 25, 12, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,2
    stat_pri_attr prec,thrown,thrown ap
    stat_sec 6, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
    stat_sec_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_8, ap
    stat_pri_armour 10, 21, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
    stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 25
    stat_fire_delay -15000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 0, 1187, 393, 50, 80, 1287
    ownership seleucid, slave

    here's the DMB file ( I checked- all the textures and model are there as the directory sows):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ; Italian infantry - ETRUSCAN_HASTATI

    type ETRUSCAN_HASTATI
    skeleton fs_pilum, fs_gladius
    indiv_range 40
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ETRUSCAN_HASTATI.cas, max
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite spain, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite macedon, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    ; Italian infantry - LUCAN_HASTATI

    type LUCAN_HASTATI
    skeleton fs_pilum, fs_gladius
    indiv_range 40
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/LUCAN_HASTATI.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_hastati_prom_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_hastati_prom_high.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_hastati_prom_high.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_hastati_prom_high.cas, max
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite spain, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite macedon, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    ; Italian infantry - LUCANIAN_HOPLITE

    type LUCANIAN_HOPLITE
    skeleton fs_spearman ; combat spear
    indiv_range 40
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/LUCAN_SPEARMEN.cas, max
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_thrace.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_greek.spr
    model_sprite macedon, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_macedon.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_all.spr
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_all.spr
    model_sprite slave, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_slave.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    ; Roman infantry - UMBRIAN_HASTATI

    type UMBRIAN_HASTATI
    skeleton fs_pilum, fs_gladius
    indiv_range 40
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_HASTATI.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_principes_prom_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_principes_prom_high.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_principes_prom_high.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_early_principes_prom_high.cas, max
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite spain, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_sprite macedon, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_early_all.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    ; Italian infantry - UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN

    type UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN
    skeleton fs_spearman ; combat spear
    indiv_range 40
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture macedon, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/UMBRIAN_SPEARMEN.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_late_triarii_prom_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_late_triarii_prom_high.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_late_triarii_prom_high.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_late_triarii_prom_high.cas, max
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_thrace.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_greek.spr
    model_sprite macedon, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_macedon.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_all.spr
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_all.spr
    model_sprite slave, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/hellenistic/ebsprite_hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_slave.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f


    ; Italian infantry - PICENIAN_PRINCIPES

    type PICENIAN_PRINCIPES
    skeleton fs_pilum, fs_gladius
    indiv_range 40
    texture seleucid, eb/data/models_unit/textures/PICENIAN_PRINCIPES.TGA
    texture slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/PICENIAN_PRINCIPES.TGA
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_hastati_principes_late_prom_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_hastati_principes_late_prom_high.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_hastati_principes_late_prom_high.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_hastati_principes_late_prom_high.cas, max
    model_sprite seleucid, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_all.spr
    model_sprite slave, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/roman/ebsprite_roman_infantry_hastati_all.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f


    ; Italian infantry - Lucanian infantry -------> MISSING MED/LOW/LOWEST

    type greek_infantry_lucanian_spearmen
    skeleton fs_fast_javelinman, fs_fast_spearman
    indiv_range 40
    texture merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ebitalic_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_merc.tga
    texture greek_cities, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ebitalic_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_greek.tga
    texture thrace, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ebitalic_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_thrace.tga
    texture egypt, eb/data/models_unit/textures/italic/ebitalic_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_greek.tga
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_high.cas, 30
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_high.cas, 40
    model_flexi eb/data/models_unit/ebroman_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_sor_high.cas, max
    model_sprite merc, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/greek/ebsprite_greek_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_merc_merc.spr
    model_sprite greek_cities, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/greek/ebsprite_greek_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_greek.spr
    model_sprite thrace, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/greek/ebsprite_greek_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_thrace.spr
    model_sprite egypt, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/greek/ebsprite_greek_infantry_lucanian_spearmen_greek.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f


    the last unit wasn't a problem, so I won't bother presenting it.
    I got these from downloading ROA sub mod. (don't worry, they look right), then extracting files from the EB v^.81's remains. nothing else was chaneged, and I saw to it that the reference # didn't mach any other. (I found no 1, 2, 3, 5, or the other)
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 05-07-2008 at 01:36.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  2. #2

    Default Re: unit types

    did you try adding them one at a time to see if you've reached the hardcoded limit?
    Those who would give up essential liberties for a perceived sense of security deserve neither liberty nor security--Benjamin Franklin

  3. #3
    The Rabbit Nibbler Member Korlon's Avatar
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    Default Re: unit types

    There are still at least 20 unit spots left.
    Ongoing EB Campaigns:
    1.0 Pontos (245 BC)

    Remanent or Supremacy - An EB Pontos AAR - Unfortunately postponed indefinitely.
    1.1 Saka Rauka Gameplay Guide
    1.1 Lusotannan Gameplay Guide

  4. #4
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: unit types

    I only added 7, and most shared models. I followed instructions to the letter, yet it still messed up.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  5. #5

    Default Re: unit types

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim
    I only added 7, and most shared models. I followed instructions to the letter, yet it still messed up.
    Don't you have to add the "mercenary" attribute?
    [COLOR="Black"]Jesus's real name was Inuyasha Yashua!
    Any computer made after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus View Post
    What I'm showing here is that it doesn't matter how well trained or brave you are, no one can resist an elephant charge in the rear

    ~Fluvius

  6. #6
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: unit types

    not on purpose. I added slingers in ibfd without the need for that. why?
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 05-07-2008 at 21:44.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  7. #7

    Default Re: unit types

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim
    not on purpose. I added slingers in ibfd without the need for that. why?
    Because a single faction can't have 2 units with the same model, unless it has the mercenary attribute.

    In EB Diadochi factions wouldn't be able to recruit Massalian -and- Hypatistai, or Baktria recruited Indo-greeks and Baktrian Hoplites. Or KH recruiting Iphri and heavy Iphri's or Ekdromoi and Trogg Hoplites.
    [COLOR="Black"]Jesus's real name was Inuyasha Yashua!
    Any computer made after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus View Post
    What I'm showing here is that it doesn't matter how well trained or brave you are, no one can resist an elephant charge in the rear

    ~Fluvius

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