Screenies

[Templar Knight]

It was mentioned sometime ago that the Jacobites would make an appearance if the situation was right and certain conditions were met. Are you able at this point to elaborate on this in terms of hand-to-hand fighting? Will the Jacobites from the highlands be portrayed historically as broadsword and targe armed? Will we see brutal hand-to-hand fighting between highlanders and British redcoats? If not will it be easily moddable? Cheers!

[Furious Mental]

Actually a minority of them used broadswords and fewer used the targe.

[Templar Knight]

Actually a minority of them used broadswords and fewer used the targe.

At the Battle of Killiecrankie 1689 there were still a large number of highlanders using the two-handed claymore. Into the 18th century most favoured the basket hilted broadsword and targe. Small numbers (by 1715 - Battle of Sheriffmuir and 1719 - Battle of Glenshiel) would carry the lochaber axe and muskets.

[Furious Mental]

Well things had obviously changed considerably by 1745 then.

[Templar Knight]

Well things had obviously changed considerably by 1745 then.

So tell me what they carried at Prestonpans, Clifton Moor, Falkirk and Culloden?

[Furious Mental]

"Actually, the assault columns were deeper than they were wide. That's why they were called 'columns' in the first place, rather than lines or squares."

No it doesn't. All that 'line' denotes is that the companies or battalions are adjacent to each other. Put one behind the other and it became a column, whether or not the formation was then wider than it was deep. As I said above, the words had a technical meaning which bore little relation to how the words 'line' and 'column' are used in ordinary English.

"
As far as the muskets vs bayonets issue goes, I remain unconvinced lists of patients admitted to hospitals are representative of overall battlefield fatalities. But more importantly, even if the musket ball caused more deaths than the bayonet, that doesn't mean bayonet charges should be excluded from the game."

In fact I wasn't referring to lists of patients, but inspections of the battlefield. But you don't need to look at statistics. An examination of contemporary accounts reveals that actual bayonet fights rather than charges which drive the enemy away were by far the exception, especially in open field and between large bodies of soldiers.

"
So tell me what they carried at Prestonpans, Clifton Moor, Falkirk and Culloden?"

Mostly muskets.

[Templar Knight]

''Mostly muskets''

Any sources?

From what I have seen only the front rank men carried muskets most of the men behind them carried bladed weapons. When the highland charge began the highlanders would run at the enemy, the front rank men would fire a volley and then the rest would charge with bladed weapons.

Most of the sources I have read state that the broadsword was still the main weapon by 1745/46, although there were large numbers of firearms than in previous risings.

Cumberland’s bayonet tactic, although remains open to question, was developed to strike the highlanders using their main weapon, the broadsword. When they raised their swords above their heads to strike, the redcoat would attack the highlander to his right, not the one in front, relying on his comrade to his left to cover him. Therefore hitting the highland on his unprotected right rather than attacking him head-on and getting the bayonet stuck in the targe.

Culloden, the highlander’s last charge - John Sadler
The 45 - Christopher Duffy
1745, A military History - Stuart Reid
Jacobite Rebellion, 1689-1746, Men at Arms
Fortress Scotland and the Jacobites, Historic Scotland - Doreen Grove, and C.J. Tabraham
The Jacobite Wars: Scotland and the Military Campaigns of 1715 and 1745 - John L. Roberts

[Ulstan]

No it doesn't. All that 'line' denotes is that the companies or battalions are adjacent to each other. Put one behind the other and it became a column, whether or not the formation was then wider than it was deep. As I said above, the words had a technical meaning which bore little relation to how the words 'line' and 'column' are used in ordinary English.

...

I really think we're arguing the same thing here. That's exactly what I said. When the battalions are arranged into a formation deeper than they are wide (which is what happens when you stack them), it's a column. When they are arranged side by side so that they are wider than they are deep, it's a line. Moreover, I am speaking exactly of that technical meaning you keep referring to. Military formations are the only usage of the terms line and column where width vs depth comes into play. In ordinary English, the height of a line or the width of a column are completely irrelevant. What I'm talking about IS their technical meaning.

In fact I wasn't referring to lists of patients

The only figures I have seen posted in this thread is from a list of patients in a hospital.

An examination of contemporary accounts reveals that actual bayonet fights rather than charges which drive the enemy away were by far the exception

I've already said this too, at least as far as open field fighting is concerned. I can only conclude you're trying to argue that there shouldn't be any bayonet charges in the game at all, which would be a gross travesty of historical accuracy.