Punch through the center, yao

[QuintusSertorius]

It's rarely efficient to punch through the centre, since at the very heart of the line tends to be the toughest troops of all. Worse still if they're pikemen.

But it is possible, in a recent battle (see the second one) I routed the units either side of the tough bastards in the very middle, then fell on their flanks to rout them. But that was at the same time as flanking them on both sides as well as aiming to punch through their centre.

[Gaivs]

Look at Marathon. The Persians punched through the centre yet still got slaughtered.

[Parallel Pain]

The Persians did not punch through, the Greeks did a tactical fall back, prove being there isn't much Greek casualties.

As for where punching worked, off the top of my head:
Issus
Gaugamela
Mikatagahara (actually probably 2/5 of all Sengoku Jidai field battles)
Australiz

Looking at Hannibal's double-evenlopment it's the same
If at Trebia the Romans had punched through the Carthaginian center before their own flanks collapsed, the Romans would have won.
At Cannae, if we trust Goldsworthy, then Hannibal had to specify his reserves to seal the breach. If we take conventional, then it is still the same as if the Cavalry did not do their job fast enough it would have been a Roman victory.

That's how the punch and the flanking worked in history. Often one side would try to outflank his opponent while the other goes for the punch. The flanking side focus his troops on one or both flanks and the punching side focus his troops much nearer to the center, wherever he suspect he can punch through. It then comes down to who's can achieve his goal first.

Game-wise, when the AI puts its units in one single long line, it's easy to punch. But now I use darth formation so I can't really punch until much later (though can't flank either) and so I haven't really tried.

[QuintusSertorius]

According to Goldsworthy, at Cannae the Romans did punch through the centre - that's how a large body of survivors was able to exit the battle afterwards. But they weren't confident enough to wheel on the now-exposed flanks of the Carthaginian wings and possibly change the course of the battle. They'd given up the battle as lost.

[Parallel Pain]

No according to Goldsworthy the African came in and attacked the troops that came through the center from two sides, effectively containing the breech and at the same time outflanking the Romans. Mago and Hannibal were then able to rally the Gauls and throw them back into the fight, surrounding the Romans that had broken through on three sides.

But remember Hannibal had left reserves to this purpose.

[chenkai11]

No according to Goldsworthy the African came in and attacked the troops that came through the center from two sides, effectively containing the breech and at the same time outflanking the Romans. Mago and Hannibal were then able to rally the Gauls and throw them back into the fight, surrounding the Romans that had broken through on three sides.

But remember Hannibal had left reserves to this purpose.

Yeah, and the poor Roman general thought that he can smash a human wall with human bodies. But if he did manage to protect his flank, may be, just may be the Roman legions could win that battle.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hmmm, I checked back and stand corrected. Now it's bugging me which battle featured a breakthrough where the troops in the centre just marched away.

[duncan.gill]

Gaugamela: did a "punch through" actually occur? From memory didn't some of the Persians actually break through Alexander's lines but then ran off to loot the baggage train, leaving a gap in their own lines which Alexander exploited by directly charging Darius?

[General Appo]

Yeah, and the poor Roman general thought that he can smash a human wall with human bodies. But if he did manage to protect his flank, may be, just may be the Roman legions could win that battle.

Not true, Hannibal came very close to losing. If only the Gauls and Iberians hadn´t hold out for so long or would have completely broken not the Romans would likely have won the battle.

[konny]

As for where punching worked, off the top of my head:
Issus
Gaugamela

In both cases a flanking manouver was the decisive move.

Mikatagahara (actually probably 2/5 of all Sengoku Jidai field battles)

Don't know.

Australiz

You mean Austerlitz? The French attack actualy hit what was the allied right wing because most of the allied forces had allready moved SW where they were pinned by Davout between Pratzen and Satschan. Examples for frontal engagements from the Napoleonic Wars would be Waterloo, Borodino, Lingy and the like.

Nevertheless, frontal assaults do work in EB because the AI is hardly fielding any reserves and often has all the better units on the flanks. Once you have punched through the line you are able to envelope both his wings and have your cavalry rushing through the gap to finish his light troops and move at will behind the enemy's line. This very usefull when you are outnumbered but have the better quality troops.

[General Appo]

Actually, punching through the middle was much easier in Vanilla, where units routs and die at an incredible rate. Had Cannae been played on RTW the Hastati would likely have killed off the Gauls even before Hannibal´s cavalry had engaged the Romans.

[Parallel Pain]

In both cases a flanking manouver was the decisive move.

At Issus Alexander just rushed straight forward and mashed through the enemy left center with companion + hypaspists, he didn't even try to move around the flank. The hole he created he exploited by hitting everywhere else of the Persian line from the side and rear.

At Gaugamela while Alexander hammer-anvil-ed the Persian Center, broke through, and again swamped all the other part of the Persian line. No move around the flank.

You mean Austerlitz? The French attack actualy hit what was the allied right wing because most of the allied forces had allready moved SW where they were pinned by Davout between Pratzen and Satschan.

Technically, the Allied right was further north fighting Lanne's V Corps.

As for the game, I guess me playing VH battles with Darth AI formation mod makes punching a lot harder.

[chenkai11]

Why not use the Trojans flaming balls to punch a hole?

[pezhetairoi]

Is that a joke?

And where're you from, chenkai? Your name sounds Chinese. Haven't seen you around on the EB org so i'll just say welcome!

[chenkai11]

Look at Marathon. The Persians punched through the centre yet still got slaughtered.

Punching a hole in the center is only use when you can't outflank the enemy, at the same time you got some heavy tanker, like cataphracts and elephants. The main purpose of punching a hole is to disrupt the formation line then you need infantry to do the rest.