Breaking open the front of a phalanx

[Vorian]

Could work if you faced only a spear in from og every man and they kept them still.

However three or four spears were in fromt of every phalangite, so you would have to pass through the first two, to counter another two and another two before you reach the men.

[duncan.gill]

I was thinking of something where they put their heads down and just ran. The pikes would be easy to ward off because of the point of contact being close to the shield and far away from the pike-wielder (i.e. simple leverage).

I would have thought that this could happen pretty quickly - a phalanx (to my way of thinking) would have been extremely effective if a group of men tried to push forward against it with a horizontal shield wall (as the shields would be perpendicular to the spears) but not trying to his shields obliquely.

[Maion Maroneios]

Could work if you faced only a spear in from og every man and they kept them still.

However three or four spears were in fromt of every phalangite, so you would have to pass through the first two, to counter another two and another two before you reach the men.

Exactly my thought. I have read though, that Roman soldiers deployed a certain tactic against Makedonian phalangites, where they ducked under the pikes and crawled until they got under the phalangite's noses. Pretty nifty, I would say, though I think well trained or experienced phalangites could deal with this some way...

[Cartaphilus]

Exactly my thought. I have read though, that Roman soldiers deployed a certain tactic against Makedonian phalangites, where they ducked under the pikes and crawled until they got under the phalangite's noses. Pretty nifty, I would say, though I think well trained or experienced phalangites could deal with this some way...

In Late Middle Age they developed the great two handed swords as a good way to fight the pike unities, and make a breach in the pike wood.

A two meter sword (very rare indeed) has that purpose, break the pikes, not to fight as we seen in movies (like Mel Gibson as William Wallace style).

[Cambyses]

I seem to remember reading that one of the more common methods to deal with phalanxes in early years was to actually grab the pikes and try to pull them off the enemy.

It seems hard to imagine the V shape shield charge would work. Surely any skilled phalnx would not be a static wall formation, but a well drilled group of men thrusting their spears repeatedly at the enemy. With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles, they could also co-ordinate thrusts to prevent any individuals winning through. In essence it would be 6+ phalangites vs 1 enemy warrior at the front

[Lysimachos]

With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles

I find it hard to imagine soldiers in a tightly packed phalanx swinging their several metres long sarissas to the side to attack from a different angle.

[QuintusSertorius]

I find it hard to imagine men who can't actually see further ahead of them than the guy in front able to actively fight with someone trying to infiltrate the phalanx.

[The General]

I seem to remember reading that one of the more common methods to deal with phalanxes in early years was to actually grab the pikes and try to pull them off the enemy.

It seems hard to imagine the V shape shield charge would work. Surely any skilled phalnx would not be a static wall formation, but a well drilled group of men thrusting their spears repeatedly at the enemy. With the added reach they could attack from many and different angles, they could also co-ordinate thrusts to prevent any individuals winning through. In essence it would be 6+ phalangites vs 1 enemy warrior at the front

Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.

[Jolt]

Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.

I suppose people are just making this a one on one situation, but in a battle, it'd be very hard to achieve something like that. The Wedge matter can be successful, simply put, but if you put them in the midst of a battle, what happens is that they form to attack a simple phalanx, probably leaving them open to other attacks. Ranged attacks, javelins and etcetera would quickly disrupt such an attack. Furthermore the phalanx would actually be making it's job of holding the enemy down (even if the enemy's objective was to break the formation), possibly long enough for an "assault" infantry or cavalry to charge in and cause massive casualties, which would be enhanced since such a formation would have the same downsides as the phalanx, since it would be a densely packed formation focussed on pushing foward, and if a cavalry charge came from the sides or rear mayhem and chaos would ensue.

[The General]

I suppose people are just making this a one on one situation, but in a battle, it'd be very hard to achieve something like that. The Wedge matter can be successful, simply put, but if you put them in the midst of a battle, what happens is that they form to attack a simple phalanx, probably leaving them open to other attacks. Ranged attacks, javelins and etcetera would quickly disrupt such an attack. Furthermore the phalanx would actually be making it's job of holding the enemy down (even if the enemy's objective was to break the formation), possibly long enough for an "assault" infantry or cavalry to charge in and cause massive casualties, which would be enhanced since such a formation would have the same downsides as the phalanx, since it would be a densely packed formation focussed on pushing foward, and if a cavalry charge came from the sides or rear mayhem and chaos would ensue.

You are assuming a whole lot of things.

• Phalanx-side has javelineers amidst the phalangites (they can't be thrown that far, yet phalanx blocks are 16-men deep with back rows keeping their sarissae erect, and wouldn't have space in between them... Or a wedge to push through the phalanx formation wouldn't be necessary)
• Enemy doesn't have javelins (the setting that I imagined was Romani vs. Makedonia/Seleukids/etc)
• Enemy uses ALL troops in a formation to form the wedge, and leaves [unit's] flanks undefended
• Phalanx-side will keep the enemy busy enough for flanking/rear attacks to hit home even if penetrated by an infantry formation (as in the phalanx will not break and flee)
• Enemy is vulnerable to assault infantry/cavalry, even though the enemy would most likely have to be heavy infantry to even have a shot at pushing through the phalanx formation, or at least possess great discipline
• Enemy leaves flanks/rear undefended, and doesn't have reserves or additional units behind the front line

;)

[Xurr]

Directing their attacks against the V-formation pushing into the pike-mass would mean leaving their front with less spear points, thus opening the possibility of a breach there (perhaps also executed by the V-wedge formation?).

If I were to push through a phalanx front (for whatever reason), the V-wedge formation would be my initial idea, probably.

My initial thought would be small siege equipment. make a wedge shaped wooden fence 6 feet wide and 6-8 feet tall and put it on wheels(chariot wheels to keep it light). You could have 2-3 guys run it into the phalanx and follow with troops who would hack at the sarissa as they came. Put 4-5 of these on each phalanx and I think you could cause some serious havoc.

[Gabicho]

The "V" tactic sounds theoretically possible. But don't forget that in a real battle, if you have a sword, a shield, and your commander orders you to use "the "V" infiltration assault tactic", while 6 spears are pointed at you (god forbid they also have slingers and javalineers in the back rows)... chances are, unless you were a spartan, an elite profiessional legionnaire, a fanatic, a berserker, or had a death wish, you would play deaf and keep doing whatever it was you were doing prior to recieving that order (standing just out of range of the pikes, most likely). In real battles you really die, and that's why these kind of "daredevil" tactics were rarely tried.

It's just like the "gun disarming" techniques of nowadays. They can work? Sure. Would two soldiers jump out of cover, run towards the enemy's defenses (pillboxes, trenches, whatever) covering each other while being outgunned in a 12:2 ratio, and dodging bullets - so when they reach the enemy lines, use their gun disarming techniques on 6 enemies each, causing the 2,500-strong enemy brigade's formation to completely collapse? Well, it IS possible. But not even remotely likely. I think they (and their commanders) would use common sense, hold their positions, and wait for the artillery (archers) to break the morale and formation of the enemy, and for the tanks (cavalry) or elite troops to smash the flanks and rear of the enemy instead.
I'm exaggerating, of course, but wanted to make my point