How to beat horse archers in real life?

[hoom]

In real life the Chinese built a really big wall during the EB period

I know very little about it but in checking the dates, Wikipedia says they also went offensive with a big cavalry based army & chased some of them to the Ukraine only to have the nomads come creeping back after the Chinese withdrew to more sensible borders

[Tellos Athenaios]

In real life the Chinese built a really big wall during the EB period

And they were not the only ones with the same idea. The Hyrkanian Wall is very similar: build a wall that'll stop 'em.

[The Persian Cataphract]

And they were not the only ones with the same idea. The Hyrkanian Wall is very similar: build a wall that'll stop 'em.

There is a huge debate to this, because the so-called "Wall of Alexander" (A very misleading title) is such a very poorly documented aspect of Iranian fortification works; Some claim that it was a building project commenced by Darius I The Great, to seal the Atrek river, and to mark a definite defense-line. Some say that to the contrary of the popular academical assessment (Which I will elaborate later) it was a part of the Sassanian uprise against the Hephtalites during the rule of Chosroës I "The Immortal Soul" (Which also saw the conception of Derbent or "Darband"/The Gate, otherwise incorrectly called "Gates of Alexander").

However the established opinion is that the Hyrcanian defense wall indeed was built during Parthian period and formally began when Arsaces had built his "impregnable fortress" at Darâ; At the mount Apaurtenon or Apartvartikene. Certainly the area must have had prior fortification works dating to the Achaemenid period (We do not hear that much of Seleucid activities in the area; The coins of Andragoras or Pherecles accordingly to other [later] sources are extremely rare shows that the area was in a particular turmoil, and considering how the area fluctuated in loyalty, Seleucid intervention must have been modest until the reconquista of Antiochos III Megas), but it was really the Parthians who turned that wall into what it was; A gigantic barrier crowned with fourty castles. The Parthians were no amateurs in fortifications, in fact the Sassanians completely owed their mastery in building fortresses and castles to the Parthian model. So by the mod's start, it is a bit of a stretch to have the fortifications there, but the construction of it would commence and probably finish within the mod's frame of time. In fact, it is likely, because the Parthians did past the first century CE no longer show any particular interest in the steppes.

A similar undertaking was prepared in the fringes of Gedrosia, where the fertile coast was guarded by a huge citadel (At Bam, now demolished); The desert was not an option, so the only way to get past Gedrosia to coastal Carmania was to cross this citadel. The Parthian fortress at Bam, the "Desert Emerald" as called by the natives today, was known as the largest adobe fortifications in the world, and a mark of the Parthians turning the dominion of the Ichtyophagoi into more than a desert. It lead to the Sassanian refoundation of Poura/Pura, as Panj-Gûr. The concentrated efforts in this area would eventually lead to the power-base of the later Saffarid dynasty of Iran (861 - 1003 CE).

[Tellos Athenaios]

There is a huge debate to this, because the so-called "Wall of Alexander" (A very misleading title) is such a very poorly documented aspect of Iranian fortification works; Some claim that it was a building project commenced by Darius I The Great, to seal the Atrek river, and to mark a definite defense-line. Some say that to the contrary of the popular academical assessment (Which I will elaborate later) it was a part of the Sassanian uprise against the Hephtalites during the rule of Chosroës I "The Immortal Soul" (Which also saw the conception of Derbent or "Darband"/The Gate, otherwise incorrectly called "Gates of Alexander").

However the established opinion is that the Hyrcanian defense wall indeed was built during Parthian period and formally began when Arsaces had built his "impregnable fortress" at Darâ; At the mount Apaurtenon or Apartvartikene. Certainly the area must have had prior fortification works dating to the Achaemenid period (We do not hear that much of Seleucid activities in the area; The coins of Andragoras or Pherecles accordingly to other [later] sources are extremely rare shows that the area was in a particular turmoil, and considering how the area fluctuated in loyalty, Seleucid intervention must have been modest until the reconquista of Antiochos III Megas), but it was really the Parthians who turned that wall into what it was; A gigantic barrier crowned with fourty castles. The Parthians were no amateurs in fortifications, in fact the Sassanians completely owed their mastery in building fortresses and castles to the Parthian model. So by the mod's start, it is a bit of a stretch to have the fortifications there, but the construction of it would commence and probably finish within the mod's frame of time. In fact, it is likely, because the Parthians did past the first century CE no longer show any particular interest in the steppes.

A similar undertaking was prepared in the fringes of Gedrosia, where the fertile coast was guarded by a huge citadel (At Bam, now demolished); The desert was not an option, so the only way to get past Gedrosia to coastal Carmania was to cross this citadel. The Parthian fortress at Bam, the "Desert Emerald" as called by the natives today, was known as the largest adobe fortifications in the world, and a mark of the Parthians turning the dominion of the Ichtyophagoi into more than a desert. It lead to the Sassanian refoundation of Poura/Pura, as Panj-Gûr. The concentrated efforts in this area would eventually lead to the power-base of the later Saffarid dynasty of Iran (861 - 1003 CE).

Though I mostly mentioned it for a comparable undertaking to that of the (various) Chinese walls built.

In fact the wall built by the Qin was also a bit of an offensive/pre-emptive measure as it also meant the acquisition of a sizeable chunk of the pastures & trade routes formerly under Nomadic control.

But regardless: walls seem to have been the typical 'settled empire's' response to frequent raiding. The main problem with combating Nomads doesn't lie in their horse archers; it lies in the fact that at times they will go one way, and at other times they will choose the other. You can't give an accurate long-term prediction of where they will strike; and to guard all your open stretches where they might invade with sizeable armies is practically impossible to keep up.

Walls are a cost-effective; long-term; efficient solution. It also has the added benefit of 'chanelling' any nomadic invasion to more advantagous locations.

[Hooahguy]

@ the OP: heres what i do:
RUN AWAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jk lol....

[cultist]

the best way is to choose your battle location if you are poor,or,raise a bigger army of HA if you are rich
thats what i would do

[Stone and Blood]

And if, some mad king wanted to conquest the steppes, what would be the best way to do that?
How his army would conquest a vast place, with thousands of horseman raiding his army all the time, burning farms, following all his movements, and still keep his kingdom protected against pillage?

[Africanvs]

I know there was a type of bow used in the crusades, by the turks against the christians, that was fired with the feet and could rain arrows down upon a target from an incredible range. Something like this may be feasible. Aside from that, screening your main force with light cavalry, light missle cavalry ideally, is really your only option to keep mobile missle armed horse off of your army.

Combating a nomadic society with no major settlements that possess a mounted warfare culture is going to be difficult unless you adopt their tactics. Using heavy infantry against light, fast, mounted archers is going to be futile. If I were a general tasked with invading such lands I would ally myself with various tribes, buying them with whatever they found valuable and using them against my enemy. I would also hire local mercenaries to fight in their fashion. I would attempt to strike at their food supply as well, forcing them to migrate or seek out and attempt to destroy their villages and massacre their women and children until they relented. If you attack something they are forced to defend eventually they'll have to stand and fight and stop the hit and run tactics.

I would only do this if there was something really worth gaining from the lands, and I'd want to be sure I could hold the territory without dealing constantly with marauding nomadic horsemen. Something like a river barrier would work, otherwise I'd have to build some kind of fortification.

[Stone and Blood]

I know there was a type of bow used in the crusades, by the turks against the christians, that was fired with the feet and could rain arrows down upon a target from an incredible range. Something like this may be feasible. Aside from that, screening your main force with light cavalry, light missle cavalry ideally, is really your only option to keep mobile missle armed horse off of your army.

Combating a nomadic society with no major settlements that possess a mounted warfare culture is going to be difficult unless you adopt their tactics. Using heavy infantry against light, fast, mounted archers is going to be futile. If I were a general tasked with invading such lands I would ally myself with various tribes, buying them with whatever they found valuable and using them against my enemy. I would also hire local mercenaries to fight in their fashion. I would attempt to strike at their food supply as well, forcing them to migrate or seek out and attempt to destroy their villages and massacre their women and children until they relented. If you attack something they are forced to defend eventually they'll have to stand and fight and stop the hit and run tactics.

I would only do this if there was something really worth gaining from the lands, and I'd want to be sure I could hold the territory without dealing constantly with marauding nomadic horsemen. Something like a river barrier would work, otherwise I'd have to build some kind of fortification.

I agree with you. But still, about trying to get to their villages or food supply to make them choose a defensive tactic, I belive that these locations are far away from the borders, so that would exists a great space with nothing but grass betwen the villages and the borders, full of scouts in order to intercept the enemy's movement and atack any army that reach these areas.
So, still the nomadic people will have the agressive behavior, terrain advantage, and will choose once again when the fight will start.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

An interesting discussion. Clearly there is an effective counter to the HA and the vast stretches of the steppes, b/c otherwise we would be speaking in Hunnish, Mongolian, or _____ (fill in the blank).

RTW, and EB by default, offers a somewhat skewed vision of HAs sweeping out of the steppes to establish vast empires. A better vision of empire that included HA and other Steppe warriors might be the Byzantine and Perisan Empires. We should look at these as models of HAs used in a successful manner - in real life.

The silver bullet mytholgy that lingers in military circles is just that, a myth. HAs are not a silver bullet. We should instead look at units (ie., HAs) in more of a Rock, Paper, Scissors fashion.

I know there was a type of bow used in the crusades, by the turks against the christians, that was fired with the feet and could rain arrows down upon a target from an incredible range.

@ Africanus: I can't quote sources, but I believe you are speaking of a bow first used by the Greeks during seige warfare. Perhaps some of the Greek Historians know better? Does this sound familiar to you, TPC? It is possible the Greeks invented it, but I would not be suprised if it had more Eastern origins.

[Stone and Blood]

The counter must be that leaving the steppes the HA would lose theyr terrain advantage, could not atack fortified positions like a fortress very sucefuly, as heavy infantry is better for those situations, would not fight very well when they get under siege, etc...

[Africanvs]

I agree with you. But still, about trying to get to their villages or food supply to make them choose a defensive tactic, I belive that these locations are far away from the borders, so that would exists a great space with nothing but grass betwen the villages and the borders, full of scouts in order to intercept the enemy's movement and atack any army that reach these areas.
So, still the nomadic people will have the agressive behavior, terrain advantage, and will choose once again when the fight will start.

Indeed, that's why it's so difficult to have success against them in their own back yard. Like fighting the swiss in the mountiains. :)

Furthermore, attcking food supply and villages was only part of my strategy, you'd have to use allies and mercenaries who were skilled in the use of the enemy's tactics. The Romans did this often such as in the Jewish Rebellion in which Cestius Gallus participated in 66.

Rome

3rd Legion (4 cohorts, c. 2000)

7th Legion (8 cohorts, c. 2000)

22nd Legion (4 cohorts, c. 2000)

4 cavalry wings (2000)

6 auxiliary cohorts (4800)

Allies

Antiochus of Commagene: 2000 horse archers, 3000 bowmen

Agrippa of Judaea: 1500 horse archers, 3000 bowmen

Soaemus of Emesa: 1200 horse archers, 1500 bowmen, 1000 javelin men

Source: http://orbat.com/site/history/before...evolt66ad.html


Not sure about the credibility of the actual troop numbers but one must assume allied troops and Auxiliaries were used in many other situations by the Romans. For example their alliance with Massinissa and the use of Numidian horse was a key element in their success in the Punic Wars. You can observe the struggle they had when they attempted to fight Jugurtha later on, and suffered defeat due to their inability to adapt to the tactics of a missle cavalry force, against which they used a lot of heavy infantry, (with no success) until Marius came along with some reforms. With his reformed and well-trained force he was able to achieve success, yet the real victory must be credited to Sulla, who made the deal that ended the war, seeing Jugurtha handed over to the Romans. Anyway, that's not really the point. :)

Quick source for the Jugurthine War: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/r...7JugurthaW.htm

[craziii]

I read this a while back, the chinese vs the huns(not sure if this is the right name), systematically herd them away from their pastures and salt the ground as you move on. never fight an offensive battle, just invade their lands and ruin them for future grazing. guarantee you a peace of mind.