Roman Civil Wars

[J.Alco]

I remember reading somewhere that EBII would incorporate Roman 'civil wars' in order to simulate the Caesarian/Senate conflicts of the perid. I've been wondering a bit about how that's gonna work, though I know that EBII is still very much a WIP, so I'm not really expecting any definite answers to these Q's:

1-I imagine that the most logical time for the Civil Wars to occur would be after the Augustan Reforms (when your character has, so to speak, 'Taken power'). Is this correct?

2-I also imagine that the forces opposing you would be represented as Eleutheroi instead of a seperate faction, however, will they appear as simply large, full-stack armies roaming around the map? Or will provinces actually rebel to them, thus giving your opponents actual 'bases' from which to launch attacks against you?

3-If the above case happens, and provinces DO revolt to your enemies, would these be specific provinces that would be lost (i.e, Southern and central Italy, Greece, and Spain, which is where historically the Senate armies would concentrate and where they gathered most recruits/support for their cause) or would the rebelling provinces be randomly generated?

4-Would the 'enemy' Roman skins in battle be different from those in your own army (i.e, different coloured shields or tunics, different designs on shields, different standard-bearer skins) or would they be identical to ordinary Roman units?

5-Would the 'rebelling' enemy armies be led by their own, suddenly-created captains? Or would FM's defect to the rebel's cause depending on their traits/personalities?

Any insight into these questions would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work

[Atilius]

We haven't given this any detailed thought. Since something like a Roman civil war would occur rather late in the game, we aren't likely to put much effort into it any time soon. The Romani team does plan to address this sometime in the future.

1-I imagine that the most logical time for the Civil Wars to occur would be after the Augustan Reforms (when your character has, so to speak, 'Taken power'. Is this correct?

No, the Augustan Reforms were a by-product of post-civil war military restructuring. The civil wars began in 49 BC, while Augustus was still a child, and continued on and off for almost 20 years.

[J.Alco]

No, the Augustan Reforms were a by-product of post-civil war military restructuring. The civil wars began in 49 BC, while Augustus was still a child, and continued on and off for almost 20 years.

I was aware, before I posted, of the date of the historical Roman Civil Wars.

However, I'm not sure if whether EBII will be following the same historical timeline, since the EB FAQ states clearly that the Augustan Reforms occur when 'a man with the drive arises in the Republic, willing to overthrow the Senate, give him the chance and these reforms will take place'. The FAQ also says, with regards to the traits the character must achieve in the game: 'If these conditions (the personality traits) are met, the general will receive a trait telling he wants to seize power. Make him the Faction Heir and as soon as he becomes the leader the reforms will happen'.

Since the character wants to 'sieze power', this seems like an attempt to simulate the player's own empire having it's own particular Caesar/Sulla figure intent on marching on Rome and siezing power, as it were, which would logically mean that the Senate would oppose said character.

That's what I meant in the post by the Augustan reforms: if whether the civil war, once a FM character has achieved those traits, would be triggered when said character is made faction heir (before the reforms kick in) or faction leader (after the reforms).

Or will EBII stick to historical chronology when it comes to these events? I would imagine that in that case the Augustan reforms would be set to occur at a later date, since in EB they're available after 125BC.

[Atilius]

As I said above, we have not given the matter any detailed thought. We will not attempt to conform to a historical timeline.

[antisocialmunky]

You could tie this into the Augustian reforms and so something with traits and defecting generals.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Actually, it would probably be tied to the Marian Reforms. Marius was the one to basically start the tradition, and the new form or soldiers, loyal to their general, would cause civil wars. The Augustan military reforms were reforms, in part, to put an end to the civil wars.

[antisocialmunky]

That'd be good but there's an annoying roleplaying element that gets thrown out the window when your general who conquered all of Gaul and you were in love with decides to quit and die horribly due to stupid AI. Maybe if we could script crusades or something so they bee line for Rome.

I'm all for it being incorporated earlier in the game.

[MidevalLoRd]

That'd be good but there's an annoying roleplaying element that gets thrown out the window when your general who conquered all of Gaul and you were in love with decides to quit and die horribly due to stupid AI. Maybe if we could script crusades or something so they bee line for Rome.

I'm all for it being incorporated earlier in the game.

Well, I'm not completly sure, but didn't julius ceaser do that?

[antisocialmunky]

Kinda, and then he had to run all over Asia minor trying to kill Pompey.

[Parallel Pain]

How about post-Marian after certain conditions are met (Like a character/family conquers a lot of land and controls a lot of provinces or something) the civil war starts, with the faction basically divided into two halves and you have ton conquer the other half back. It should be faster because the AI gets only 1/2 of the original faction's armed forces instead of it's overwhelming numbers it usually have, so if you can meet those in the field and destroy them, it won't be that hard to retake the empire, since you don't have culture penalty to worry about and the buildings are all built you can retrain and keep going.

And after you win it you get Augustian Reform (restructuring after a civil war)

[antisocialmunky]

Well, that would be need an extra slot. They aren't going to do it that way. The best we can hope for is some sort of rebel thing. Rebels in M2TW can be fairly formidable - (also easily distracted by those shiny watch towers... also like to wander around in the desert -> Hebrews = Rebel).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What about Seleukid or Baktrian civil wars (which we know occurred - and much earlier in the game than Roman ones which happened after 200 years)? Should we make scripts for those, or for every other faction that gains lots of territory? It would be nice really, but I seriously doubt the Romans will get some special treatment in that regard - if they all get it then the Romans would have it, but I doubt anything unique to them would get put in.

Something interesting like making loyalty for all generals or for generals with certain traits (Barcid? Of some particular political or ethnic group?) decrease if certain events happen. That would be cool.

[J.Alco]

Actually, the idea of Seleukid and Baktrian civil wars being incorporated is pretty damn cool Imagine having to start the game fighting everyone, including what is technically your own faction! (Of course, though, that'd make both those campaigns like the Saka Rauka one: Nigh Impossible).

Still, it's a pretty awesome thought. What's more, the rebel skins wouldn't be hard to make. For the case of the Romani, f'r instance, you could have Rebel Legionary skins being differentiated simply by having different coloured plumes on their helmets (Say, red and black for your side, white and yellow for theirs). For the Baktrian and Seleucids, it's be a case of different-coloured cloaks/tunics.

I personally vote for the Baktrian and Seleukid civil wars as well!

[Megas Methuselah]

Rather than plumes, shouldn't it be different shield designs...? Or no difference at all wouldn't be a problem, either.

[antisocialmunky]

Can't we just try and make the script do a MTW thing where when oyu get about half your needed territories to conquer, about half of everyone turns rebel?

[Cambyses]

I would have thuoght it would be incredibly difficult to incoporate the concept of civil wars accurately as historically they would *tend* to revolve around personalities - although to a slightly lesser extent with the Romans. Dare I say the best way is for the loyality attribute to be added (copied?) for every faction that has an empire of over x number of settlements? If there is some way to create relationships between individual faction members that would be even better.

Sounds like a lot of hard work though... But seeing what you guys have been capable of so far, I wouldnt put anything beyond you!

[wumpus]

I would think that including the Roman Civil Wars would be a great idea. The period of the 1st Triumvirate would be a good place, Caesar vs. Pompey and all that. No, it wouldn't be necessary, IMO, for a strong leader to emerge and take over the Senate--the Senate could be an uninvolved bystander in the Civil War...whoever wins would be who will control the politics in the Senate (not necessarily to become the first Emperor--just sort of a benevolent dictator like Julius Ceasar was--and maybe an ingredient could be included making it possible to assassinate him). And again, maybe of some other circumstances that the EB team would think is good to put into EBII. I just think it would be great to have a Roman Civil War as one path that the storyline (if ever you could call it such) goes. And, also, the Seleukid and Baktrian Civil Wars--or any other factional civil war appropriate to the period, noble Teleklos Archelaou, would be a splendid idea. We are playing Total War, after all, friend J. Alco, so let us have all ingredients that are possible and let us be totally entertained to what possible limits we can reach.
Hawooh.

[Sir Edward]

Civil war scripts I think would be a great way to stop blue/yellow/silver death giants from occuring. Also would be a beautiful solution to ahistorical empire building by AI like casse constantly controlling all the british isles in every game after only 50 years of fighting or sweboz always taking over the baltic.

[antisocialmunky]

You know, here's a conceivable way how to do it.

Just keep the current series of events. When you get the seize power trait for one of your guys to become the Augustian, you get two choices:

Make him heir and trigger the civil way script where you're seizing power. Depending on his traits, we can have a few turns where people throw in their lot. So basically generals and FMs of the empire slowly go rebel within about 5 turns at which point the going rebel stops.

To do this, you should give everyone a hidden trait on whether or not they will side to maintain the Republic based on various traits(loyalty, ambitiousness) and genetics(it would be nice to have fathers have the support of most of their sons when they do this).

Now... if you don't make him the heir within a few turns, he'll go rebel along with a few generals and kids that support him and you can probably figure out a way to script him to beeline suicidally for Rome.

Obviously, this gives the player the ability to either play out a harder campaign to reconquer the empire and get some neat units to finish out the campaign or an easier campaign but no new units. Its an interesting dilemma and it could happen a few times. It also would occur some time after the Marian reforms.

You could use this sort of thing for all the factions really.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

This is sheer fantasy, but it would be great if you had Roman generals that turn rebel and attack Rome.

And if they actually succeed in taking Rome, then all 'Rebel' stacks led by a captain or general of Roman origin suddenly become the Romani faction, while the previous Roman stacks all become Rebel, and the player suddenly ends up controlling the Rebels!

Then, if the 'new' Rebels take Rome back, they become Romans again, and the 'usurping Romans' go back to being Rebels.

Would be funny!

[Maeran]

Could the succession of a new faction leader be used to trigger this? Throw in some conditional factors like reforms or number of provinces and then spawn a faction appropriate rebel army.

Add some form of unrest and you could push some distant provinces to rebel, giving a dynamic rebellion mechanism that you could get to work for most factions- without resorting to timed scripted events, which I know the team don't like.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Could the succession of a new faction leader be used to trigger this? Throw in some conditional factors like reforms or number of provinces and then spawn a faction appropriate rebel army.

Add some form of unrest and you could push some distant provinces to rebel, giving a dynamic rebellion mechanism that you could get to work for most factions- without resorting to timed scripted events, which I know the team don't like.

I think that would be the most logical time and place for a strife within a faction. At least Seleucid's seemed to have this with every succession.

I really hope that the more advanced scripting language of M2 would allow this, as I'd reckon from my really really limited meddling with Rome's scripting languge, this would be too hard to do, although I am under the impression that EB team was trying to figure out how to do a similar feature in EB I. Dunno what came out of that.

[Cartaphilus]

No, the Augustan Reforms were a by-product of post-civil war military restructuring. The civil wars began in 49 BC, while Augustus was still a child, and continued on and off for almost 20 years.

Indeed we can say that the civil wars started with the conflict of Marius and Sulla.

[General Appo]

That conflict certainly shoock Roma to its very core, and set the stage for future conflicts, much like WWI to WWII.

[Cartaphilus]

Yeah, and it's origin can be founded even in the Gracchi reforms.

So if it's possible to put it on the game in early periods, we'll have more "civil war" fun time if it only appears much later with the war between Caesar and Pompeius or even Marcus Antonius and Augustus.

[alatar]

How about if certain conditions are met (controls x factions, faction leader is new, reforms, traits).

Spawn Rebels.
Create Building in farflung area's that have -80 public order.

[Hax]

Alliance with certain factions (would make interesting rebellion for people with the Arrogant Hellene trait if the Arche Seleukeia would make peace with the Pahlava, for instance)

[Cartaphilus]

I'll hope in EB2 we will see more rebellions, unrest and civil wars than now.

[Krusader]

I'll hope in EB2 we will see more rebellions, unrest and civil wars than now.

I'm fairly sure some of the first traits we are going to look into are triggers causing revolts in Egypt and Loyalty drops when Faction Leader dies to represent the dynastic struggles. This of course is for those factions with Kings or similar.

[V.T. Marvin]

That is great!

I think that for all monarical factions at least, the succession should cause some major unrest! Especially if the new king will not be the previous king´s eldest son (possible conditions "not FatherTrait Faction_Leader" and "not CharaterTrait First_Born" or something similar).

Having such revolts and civil wars could improve the game considerably by keeping the challenge even in the mid- and late-stages of the game.

Best luck in your effort to implement this!!!