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Thread: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    As Panzer has said, this thread is for comparing the Allied Armies and the Wermacht. I did this in order to keep the topic funneled into a thread, and not off topic in the other one.

    Debate away.
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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Ok but before we start we should divide it on historical periods. Its hard to compare army from 1939/1940 with army from 1944.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    In order to throw fuel to the fire. I would claim that Finnish army was the most mobile and manouvarable WWII army from the armies that were not motorized. Both in offense and defense, the Finnish doctrine was to use speed and mobile warfare to defeat the better armed and motorized enemy. From that, exellent example is that during the major offenses of the SU in end of both Winter and Continuation war, not even a single battalion size units were not cut of surrounded nor surrendered to Soviets.
    In offensive. The Finnish doctrine was to avoid enemy strong points and surpass them, while attacking the second and behind support troops, with large flanking moves, by that the main enemy forces only had two options, either to dig in and get surrounded by Finnish or start retreating, which allowed the Finnish to attack them while on a move.
    In defense, the doctrine was that it was better to loose land then men in operational scale, usually the attacking enemy was lured into exhausting its striking force to a long distance with rapid tactical withdrawals, delaying actions and when the enemy was spread along a large area and lost the weight of its attack, Finnish would counter attack the spread enemy forces with smaller and larger individual task forces from surprising directions, while aiming to cut of the attacking force completely from the main enemy supporting area and defeat it, which is called "motti" tactics.

    Battle of Suomussalmi is a classic example of Finnish mobile defense:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uomussalmi.jpg
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 05-16-2008 at 12:42.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Phear the mighty Australian army!
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
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    Member Member Decker's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    I have a question then.

    Can anybody tell me the difference between the Wehrmacht and the Red Army when both invaded Poland? I've always been curious about this.
    "No one said it was gonna be easy! If it was, everyone would do it..that's who you know who really wants it."

    All us men suffer in equal parts, it's our lot in life, and no man goes without a broken heart or a lost love. Like holding your dog as he takes his last breath and dies in your arms, it's a rite of passage. Unavoidable. And honestly, I can't imagine life without that depth of feeling.-Bierut

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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    Ok but before we start we should divide it on historical periods. Its hard to compare army from 1939/1940 with army from 1944.
    Early/Mid/Late?

    For the Germans, I would say they were strongest in the early and later war. The Blitz was of course deadly in the begining, but towards the mid-war period the allies, especially the Russians, were figuring out how to defeat it. The German military of late '43 to the end was an extremely powerful fighting force, with new advanced tanks and weaponry, and the refinement of the Kampfgruppe. Of course, the absolute numerical superiority of the allies muted that.

    As for Hill 262, it is not a good comparison of Polish and German forces. While it did show the bravery and fighting spirit of the Poles, it is hard to say that the Germans were anywhere near their normal capability. Hitler had just single-handedly destroyed the Western front by ordering them into an insane assault and they were trying to get out of the pocket as fast as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    In order to throw fuel to the fire. I would claim that Finnish army was the most mobile and manouvarable WWII army from the armies that were not motorized.
    IMO, the Finns were far better at fighting than many of the major powers.

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    To the Allies, the main reasons for the early success of the Whermacht over the blundering Allied armies were not appearant at first. Although all the main players (France, Russia, and The United Kingdom) all had "Combined Arms" forces, it was their doctrine which not as well developed. In addition, the Germans made much better use of radio technology, for it was in the area of communications that they made the various arms work as a team. In all fairness, their early war AFVs were not really that superior to the allied vehicles. It was the way they were utilised that increased their effectivness.

    As for the Allied and Axis minor countries, they were in much more dire straits. Hidebound to outdated tactics with largely infantry armies, poorly equipped and out-maneuvered (Finns excepeted, with the Soviets providing a bad example of combined arms tactics) by a much more mobile thinking force.

    It's not that the German High Command was so much behind the new ideas either. Many commanders, Von Rundstedt for one, were very skeptical about the effectiveness of the Panzer Divisions. They were constantly worried about the risks taken by the practitioners of the new doctrine of exposing the flanks of the armored thrusts as they went deep into the enemy backfield. The vunerability of the flanks of the Schwerpunkt to armored counter-thrusts didn't occur to the Russians until late 1942 and early 1943, proving that they had indeed begun to learn the lessons of a mobile armored warfare. As Napoleon said "Beware of fighting you enemy too often for he will learn your tactics"
    Last edited by rotorgun; 05-16-2008 at 23:29.
    Rotorgun
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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    As for Hill 262, it is not a good comparison of Polish and German forces. While it did show the bravery and fighting spirit of the Poles, it is hard to say that the Germans were anywhere near their normal capability.
    I can't agree. Its just a myth that polish army was worse trained that German. France developed that myth because they didn't uderstood blitzkrieg. It was just technological advantage of German army and more planes. In the moment when German lost advantage into air, blitzkrieg broke down.

    I think hill 262 is good example to compare armies. On the one hand elite of German units ( I claim II SS coprs as elite), on the other elite of Polish units - 1st Armoured division (heavy type). No one had real air support ( I mean planes that attacked enemy positions) during that battle and both sides had tanks. Decisive appeared to be soldiers skill and low rank commander's orders.
    I can't agree with opinion that Germans had to fight into not normal conditions. Its wasn't normal that polish tank division had to defend instead of attacking.

    Anyway I think that polish army from western front was one of the best from allies. Relatively small (about 100.000 men) but with extremely high morale (no problem with deserters), count from high trained weterans (Poland, France, Battle of Britain, Atlantic, North Sea Conwoys, North Africa, Mediterran Sea, Italy, France) and with good commanders ( Maczek, Anders) - probably the only ones who really understood blitzkrieg (example - Italian campaign 1945 and chasing Germans after Falaise. Poles fought into places where rest failed - like capture of Monte Cassino or support given remainings of british 1st paratrooper division near Arnhem (without sacrifice of polish Paratrooper Brigade 100% of brits would be killed or imprisoned). I think that there were no army similar to that one - especially if we are talking about morale. And of course we had bear soldier.

    On the other hand lets talk about bad army. How about Japanese army?
    They were good when enemies did not know how to fight against them. They got some luck too (Singapoore) but in the moment when they had to face normal army with good equipment - they were all loosing due to archaic tactic and bad weapon (Japanese tanks were terrible). Example could be Guadalcanal and Japanese assaults - just a waste of men. In addition weakness of high command (lets be fair - their generals were idiots) and terrible war crimes commited by soldiers (Burma, China, Philippines) with full approval of their commanders.

    By describing Japanese army I don't mean Fleet - there situation was not the same.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    I would like to raise a point. Finnish army lost about generation of men during WWII(largest conscription percent of any side fighting in WWII), Our forces are remembered from winter war. Now in the end of winter war Finnish army was exhausted, look at the end of continuation war as we call it, now the Soviets didint suffer anymore from the self created problems like in winter war, last 8(eight) battles during summer 1944,resulted in decesive Finnish victories,against mostly Soviet guard´s armies, which couldnt be stopped anywhere else?Why did this happen? And also after the Moscow peace treaty,the German army in Lappland was driven away by basically Finnnish conscripts that had not even seen fighting much at all before it?Can somebody please rationalize why things happened like they happened? London and Helsinki are the two capitals , from the countries that fought iin Western Europe that were not conquered during WWII.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 05-17-2008 at 02:23.
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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    I can't agree. Its just a myth that polish army was worse trained that German. France developed that myth because they didn't uderstood blitzkrieg. It was just technological advantage of German army and more planes. In the moment when German lost advantage into air, blitzkrieg broke down.

    I think hill 262 is good example to compare armies. On the one hand elite of German units ( I claim II SS coprs as elite), on the other elite of Polish units - 1st Armoured division (heavy type). No one had real air support ( I mean planes that attacked enemy positions) during that battle and both sides had tanks. Decisive appeared to be soldiers skill and low rank commander's orders.
    I can't agree with opinion that Germans had to fight into not normal conditions. Its wasn't normal that polish tank division had to defend instead of attacking.

    Anyway I think that polish army from western front was one of the best from allies. Relatively small (about 100.000 men) but with extremely high morale (no problem with deserters), count from high trained weterans (Poland, France, Battle of Britain, Atlantic, North Sea Conwoys, North Africa, Mediterran Sea, Italy, France) and with good commanders ( Maczek, Anders) - probably the only ones who really understood blitzkrieg (example - Italian campaign 1945 and chasing Germans after Falaise. Poles fought into places where rest failed - like capture of Monte Cassino or support given remainings of british 1st paratrooper division near Arnhem (without sacrifice of polish Paratrooper Brigade 100% of brits would be killed or imprisoned). I think that there were no army similar to that one - especially if we are talking about morale. And of course we had bear soldier.

    On the other hand lets talk about bad army. How about Japanese army?
    They were good when enemies did not know how to fight against them. They got some luck too (Singapoore) but in the moment when they had to face normal army with good equipment - they were all loosing due to archaic tactic and bad weapon (Japanese tanks were terrible). Example could be Guadalcanal and Japanese assaults - just a waste of men. In addition weakness of high command (lets be fair - their generals were idiots) and terrible war crimes commited by soldiers (Burma, China, Philippines) with full approval of their commanders.

    By describing Japanese army I don't mean Fleet - there situation was not the same.
    I think you're giving the Poles to much credit. The German army of 1944 was understrenghted, demoralized, and losing on all fronts. This wasn't because of brave Polish fighters, this was because of a prolonged conflict that stretched resources.

    I think that there were no army similar to that one
    No. Polish troops were eager to fight, and they fought well. But they fought against a dieing enemy. Its like fighting a dieing pitbull. It has a nasty bite, but thats the only one it'll be able to take. Hill 262 was the final nail in the coffin, and the reason the Germans waved repeatedly against FIXED ENTRENCHED positions is because they knew that.

    I believe the Finns are deserving of being the best army of WW2. Standing up to the largest country, and encircling and destroying two of its divisions deserves recognition.
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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    I would like to raise a point. Finnish army lost about generation of men during WWII(largest conscription percent of any side fighting in WWII), Our forces are remembered from winter war. Now in the end of winter war Finnish army was exhausted, look at the end of continuation war as we call it, now the Soviets didint suffer anymore from the self created problems like in winter war, last 8(eight) battles during summer 1944,resulted in decesive Finnish victories,against mostly Soviet guard´s armies, which couldnt be stopped anywhere else?Why did this happen? And also after the Moscow peace treaty,the German army in Lappland was driven away by basically Finnnish conscripts that had not even seen fighting much at all before it?Can somebody please rationalize why things happened like they happened? London and Helsinki are the two capitals , from the countries that fought iin Western Europe that were not conquered during WWII.
    Here are some interesting points made in an online article about the Finnish army of WW2:


    Before the Winter War, the Finnish and Soviet tactics had one thing in common. Both were strongly emphasizing the attack, aiming for the encirclement and destruction of enemy forces. The Soviet tactics were, of course, much more demanding in this respect, as were their resources bigger for executing such attacks. After all, while the wartime mission of the Soviet Red Army was officially the defense of the "Socialist state of the peasants and workers", it had adopted the policy of "moving every enemy attack from Soviet soil to the aggressors land". This way of thinking, combined with gigantic resources (both in men and equipment), a fast growing war industry, propaganda and the communist dream of worldwide revolution, it really was the most fearsome attack-oriented army in the world (before the German lightning campaign in France).

    The Finnish Field regulations and battle manuals gave only guidelines and advises to various situations while the Soviet Field regulations were more strict and demanding. In other words, to the Finnish officers a high degree of personal initiative and independence was given and to the Soviet officers it was said to be given.

    In the use of artillery, the Finns followed a strict policy of concentrating available artillery and the Red Army believed in the policy of dispersing available artillery to several units (at least all regimental and divisional organic artillery).

    Winter and forest were regarded as allies by the Finns, whereas the Soviets regarded them to be hindrance for their operations.

    Of course, while the actual/practical tactic on the battlefield usually evolves by unofficial literacy, experience, and by individual thinking and initiative, outside the official Field regulations, the leading principles remain. Even when radical changes are made during a war, the peace time "by the book" rehearsals have a prolonged effect in tactics.
    It came from this link: http://www.winterwar.com/tactics.htm

    I tend to agree with the last paragraph as the main reason for their success-initiative taken by a free thinking soldiery is a potent weapon in and of itself. It was sheer exhaustion which forced the Finns to sign a disagreeable peace with the Soviets. That being said, they were the one of the only Nations bordering the Soviet Union which wasn't occupied by them after the war.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
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    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK
    On the other hand lets talk about bad army. How about Japanese army?
    The Japanese did have the highest morale imo in the entire war. Of course that didn't really help them in the end.

    I'd have to say that the German army probably was the best of the entire WWII. They managed to conquer most of Europe in under 3 years. It's only logical that they lost, given the sheer amount of men and industrial power massed against them, and the stupidity of Hitler and other german commanders during the latter part of the war.

    The Finns of course deserve an honourable mention.

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Well, I'd give the Japanese some recognition. Tehcnologically inferior land wise, they still managed to conquer a large amount of land the years they were alive.
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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Here is an interesting link where you can take a brief quiz to see what type of army WW II army you would have likely preferred:

    http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=194168

    Here were my results, which I found interesting in that I am currently serving in the US Army National Guard, and have served as a regular in my past. I guess I have some "Limey" tendencies-odd as I am of French/Canadian descent.

    In which World War 2 army you should have fought?
    You scored as a British and the Commonwealth
    Your army is the British and the Commonwealth (Canada, ANZAC, India). You want to serve under good generals and use good equipment in defense of the western form of life.
    British and the Commonwealth
    94%
    Finland
    75%
    Italy
    75%
    Poland
    63%
    United States
    50%
    France, Free French and the Resistance
    38%
    Soviet Union
    31%
    Germany
    25%
    Japan
    13%
    Anyone else up for the quiz?
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    You scored as a British and the Commonwealth
    Your army is the British and the Commonwealth (Canada, ANZAC, India). You want to serve under good generals and use good equipment in defense of the western form of life.
    British and the Commonwealth
    94%
    Finland
    88%
    Poland
    81%
    France, Free French and the Resistance
    75%
    Italy
    69%
    Germany
    56%
    Japan
    50%
    United States
    44%
    Soviet Union

    Surprisingly, Finland was right behind.
    HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    You scored as Germany
    Regardless of what are your political views, you could have made a career in German army. You believe in effective warfare by method of combined arms and superior military training.
    Germany
    88%
    British and the Commonwealth
    81%
    Finland
    63%
    Poland
    63%
    Italy
    56%
    Japan
    50%
    France, Free French and the Resistance
    44%
    United States
    44%
    Soviet Union
    38%

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    It seems that both SwedishFish and Evil_Maniac From Mars may have a Kamikaze death wish lurking in their deepest subconcious thoughts. You both scored 50% in favor of Japan. Is there some European "Code of Bushido" that compels the two of you? As Mr. Spock might say....Fascinating
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun
    Is there some European "Code of Bushido" that compels the two of you? As Mr. Spock might say....Fascinating
    Must be the viking in me.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    You scored as a British and the Commonwealth
    Your army is the British and the Commonwealth (Canada, ANZAC, India). You want to serve under good generals and use good equipment in defense of the western form of life.
    British and the Commonwealth
    81%
    Germany
    81%
    Poland
    63%
    Finland
    56%
    France, Free French and the Resistance
    50%
    Soviet Union
    50%
    Italy
    44%
    Japan
    38%
    United States
    31%
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Japanese army conquered big part of the world but...
    1) there were practically no real defense
    2) Japanse army had support from powerful Japanese fleet
    3) morale were high but what is morale if commanders don't think
    Last edited by KrooK; 05-17-2008 at 22:39.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    I'm pround :)

    In which World War 2 army you should have fought?
    You scored as a Poland
    Your army is Poland's army. Your tenacity will form a concept in the history of your nation and you're also ready to continue fighting even if your country is occupied by the enemy. Other nations that are included in this category are Greece, Norway, Belgium and the Netherlands.
    Poland
    94%
    Finland
    88%
    United States
    81%
    British and the Commonwealth
    75%
    Italy
    69%
    France, Free French and the Resistance
    56%
    Soviet Union
    56%
    Japan
    56%
    Germany
    44%
    And quite nice that Finns are high too :)
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    I found this curious site while looking for information about the Japanese Imperial Army (IJA). It's a copy of the actual handbook issued to the US Army describing the IJA. It's a pretty good read, and is a pretty objective look at them, this at a time when propaganda attempted to denigrate the performance of Japan's army.

    http://www.diggerhistory3.info/japan/

    While reading a Wikipedia article about the IJA, I found it interesting that France had a great deal of influence in the forming of the modern Japanese army and navy. I always thought that it was the British who they emulated. They also developed their concept of a General Staff from the Prussians. Both these facts would explain their emphasis on aggressiveness during an offensive (A French ideal), and the reliance on fortifications and defense in depth (A Prussian-like approach). Here is that link as well:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army

    After reading these articles, one comes away with more respect for the abilities of the Japanese army. It was really the great material deficiencies compared to the US and its allies, and a tendency of rigidity that resulted in their eventual defeat IMO.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 05-17-2008 at 22:53.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    France developed that myth because they didn't uderstood blitzkrieg.” Blady French, can’t trust them, I am telling you… Bench of cowards and liars, nothing more… Er, when France did produce this myth? (Books, movies, soaps, series, name them, I am interested to know what the Polish like you suppose I learned when at school: by the way, it was the Heroic Polish attacked on both sides…) Not to disturb you, carry on…

    Italian campaign 1945”: A Blitzkrieg, Italy…?

    And the Gustav line was broken by the French (battle of Carigliano and Liri) because they had donkeys -named by the English the Royal Brele Force- (Tirailleurs Algeriens) at the price of 7000 casualties. The French won the battle the 13th of May and broke the Gutav Line on 12 km deep. The Polish took Casino the 18th.
    like capture of Monte Casino”: Again, not a denial of the heroism of the Polish soldiers, by the German Paratroopers evacuated Monte Casino (thank to the French, we are welcome) when the Polish took it. The Anzac and others didn’t attack in the same conditions…

    I won’t mention all this if you hadn’t your systematic anti-French stance and again, I don’t deny the Polish heroism.

    The Finns were probably the best army during the 1st war.
    Then I think the best army, from 1943-1944 was the Red Army. The over manoeuvre the Germans, even if some defensive battles of withdrawal from the Germans were stunning. However, in the over all, the soviet tactic in combining Infantry and Tanks, covered by powerful artillery and the best of the Assault planes, just submerge the Germans like they ( the Germans) did to the French, the English, the Polish, Yugoslav etc…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  24. #24
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Then I think the best army, from 1943-1944 was the Red Army. The over manoeuvre the Germans, even if some defensive battles of withdrawal from the Germans were stunning. However, in the over all, the soviet tactic in combining Infantry and Tanks, covered by powerful artillery and the best of the Assault planes, just submerge the Germans like they ( the Germans) did to the French, the English, the Polish, Yugoslav etc
    Shhh! The very name of the barbaric Soviets bring back memories of the genocidal attack on Warsaw in 1920!!!!

    HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
    -Martok

  25. #25
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish
    Shhh! The very name of the barbaric Soviets bring back memories of the genocidal attack on Warsaw in 1920!!!!

    If Krook and I will ever be able to agree on anything, it will be the sheer brutality of the Stalinist regime.

  26. #26
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    This is an excellent source for an analysis of the German army's tactics, it is also an excerpt from an actual US Army WWII publication:

    http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/FreeFil...%20tactics.txt

    It's a long, but interesting read that might help us all to have some information that will be useful to our discussion. It always helps me to have some sources to refer to.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  27. #27
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    Then I think the best army, from 1943-1944 was the Red Army. The over manoeuvre the Germans, even if some defensive battles of withdrawal from the Germans were stunning. However, in the over all, the soviet tactic in combining Infantry and Tanks, covered by powerful artillery and the best of the Assault planes, just submerge the Germans like they ( the Germans) did to the French, the English, the Polish, Yugoslav etc…
    I have to admit, Brenus may have an excellent point. Here is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article that sheds some light:

    Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army

    Deep Operations

    Later in the 1920s and during the 1930s, Soviet military theorists introduced the concept of deep battle.[12] It was a direct consequence from the experience with wide, sweeping movements of cavalry formations during the Civil War and the Polish-Soviet War. Deep Operations encompassed multiple maneuver by multiple Corps or Army sized formations simultaneously. It was not meant to deliver a victory in a single operation, but rather multiple operations conducted in parallel or successively were meant to guarantee victory. In this, Deep operations differed from the usual interpretation of the Blitzkrieg doctrine. The objective of Deep Operations was to attack the enemy simultaneously throughout the depth of his ground force to induce a catastrophic failure in his defensive system. Soviet deep-battle theory was driven by technological advances and the hope that maneuver warfare offered opportunities for quick, efficient, and decisive victory. The concurrent development of aviation and armor provided a physical impetus for this doctrinal evolution within the Red Army. Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky stated that airpower should be "employed against targets beyond the range of infantry, artillery, and other arms. For maximum tactical effect aircraft should be employed in mass, concentrated in time and space, against targets of the highest tactical importance."

    Deep Operations were first formally expressed as a concept in the Red Army's 'Field Regulations' of 1929, but was only finally codified by the army in 1936 in the 'Provisional Field Regulations' of 1936. However the Great Purge of 1937–1939 removed many of the leading officers of the Red Army (including Tukhachevsky), and the concept was abandoned - to the detriment of the Red Army during the Winter War - until opportunities to use it evolved later during World War II. At that time, the Red Army fought in major border incidents against the Japanese, in 1938 and 1939.
    Essentially, once the German impetus was curtailed and the Red Army could introduce newer equipment to implement such a doctrine, that is what they accomplished. It was against such a doctrine that we trained when I was serving during the Cold War period. The idea of encountering such a force was intimidating to say the least-especially the thought of having to use tactical nuclear weapons to prevent a deep penetration.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  28. #28
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    At the same time, however, we must remember that the German army was severely outnumbered, at a disadvantage due to Hitler's strategic orders, and generally weakened. In tactical battles, such as this, the German forces proved their superiority in training and tactics (the former of which also began to erode severely near the end of the conflict).
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 05-18-2008 at 01:37.

  29. #29
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Yep Blitzkrieg into Italy....
    1) When Poles finally broken German defense lines into mountains ( I mean period after capturing Cassino and moron who did not use that victory), tanks made fast and effective offensive to the city of Bologne.

    Yep - French myth....
    1) When Poland lost campaign 1939 thousands of soldiers went to France and started forming new army. However French high command didn't understood how effective could be massive tank charge (with air support and into one small point) and were sure that German tank we so useful because of complete lack of training for polish soldiers. Thats why some really funny accidents happen when french istructor without war experience teached polish weterans how to shot.

    French units broke paratroopers at Monte Cassino....
    1) French units (Berbers) flanked Germans but their attack was stopped because...
    According to French sources your soldiers raped every Italian woman around.

    2) Paratroopers withdraw from Cassino but not only because of French soldiers flanking them. 17 th may Paratropeers defense became broken. If they did not withdraw, they would be defeated into few days. And do not forget about brits and americans who broke through Liri Valley


    Best Army was Red Army....
    Do not mix army with soldiers. Russian soldiers really believed that they are defending their country. Thats why they were fighting with great heroism. However whole army was much, much worse than German, American or British one. Weak high command, archaic tactic, complete lack of cooperation beetwen field army and air support (why do you think Russians need so many art - their units did not cooperate with planes at all), NKWD, murdering of prisoners of war and lack of respect for soldiers blood (you should read orders given to russian soldiers). Check stats - Russian won campaign but how many of them died for one German soldier?
    Last edited by KrooK; 05-18-2008 at 02:04.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  30. #30
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    At the same time, however, we must remember that the German army was severely outnumbered, at a disadvantage due to Hitler's strategic orders, and generally weakened. In tactical battles, such as this, the German forces proved their superiority in training and tactics (the former of which also began to erode severely near the end of the conflict).
    One of the areas where the German Army was consistently superior than many others was in battlefield recovery of their damaged equipment. As long as they could retain possession of the battlefield at the end of the battle, they were able to recover their repairable vehicles. Once in the hands of their capable forward repair depots, many of these vehicles were returned to service in a reasonably short time. I read a book about the Battle of Kursk that showed the strength returns for both German Panzer Divisions involved before, after, and then within two weeks or so of Prokhorovka,. Almost all of their losses were made good (although the trained crewmen lost were lost for good), and they were nearly at full strength. The Soviet units were in considerably worst shape, and took much longer to recover.

    Of course, the Red Army would just rotate more units to the front which the Germans could not. Attrition is what really hurt the Germans in the long run. The Soviets never really achieved complete tactical and technical parity with the Heer, and their logistical services never even came close. Pound for pound, the German Army was a tough nut to crack.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 05-18-2008 at 02:25.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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