For PanzerJaeger, comparing the armies of WW2

[rotorgun]

Here is some fascinating information about the make up of Polish forces that fought in the West after the fall of Poland.

Polish Armed Forces in the West
at the height of their power
Deserters from the German Wehrmacht 89,300 (35.8%)
Evacuees from the USSR in 1941 83,000 (33.7%)
Evacuees from France in 1940 35,000 (14.0%)
Liberated POWs 21,750 (8.7%)
Escapees from occupied Europe 14,210 (5.7%)
Recruits in liberated France 7,000 (2.8%)
Polonia from Argentina, Brazil and Canada 2,290 (0.9%)
Polonia from United Kingdom 1,780 (0.7%)
Total 249,000
Note: Until July 1945, when recruitment was halted, some 26,830 Polish soldiers were declared KIA or MIA or had died of wounds. After that date, an additional 21,000 former Polish POWs were inducted.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...o_World_War_II

If anyone should doubt the contribution of the Poles during 1939, a period when their allies did nothing to aid them in their heroic defense, here is a reminder:

The 1939 Campaign

At the outbreak of the war, Polish army was able to put in the field almost one million soldiers, 2800 guns, 500 tanks and 400 aircraft. On the September 1st, the German forces set to war against Poland amounted to more than 1.5 million solders, 9000 guns, 2500 tanks and almost 2000 aircraft. The Red Army began the invasion sending in the first lot more than 620 000 soldiers, 4700 tanks and 3200 aircraft. Despite the overwhelming odds and the necessity of defense against the offensive in all directions, the Polish army fought for 35 days. Warsaw held until September 28th, the Polish garrison of Hel Peninsula for more than a month. The last battle against German troops took place on October 5.

Polish losses in combat against Germans (killed and missing in action) amounted to ca. 70 000. 420 000 were taken prisoners. Losses against the Red Army added up to 6000 to 7000 of casualties and MIA, 250 000 were taken prisoners. Of these, almost all of the officers were murdered in the spring on 1940 in Katyn, Kharkiv and Tver upon Stalin’s decision. Although the Polish army – considering the inactivity of the Allies – was in an unfavorable position – it managed to inflict serious losses to the enemies: 14 000 German soldiers were killed or MIA, 674 tanks and 319 armored vehicles destroyed or badly damaged, 230 aircraft shot down; the Red Army lost (killed and MIA) about 2500 soldiers, 150 combat vehicles and 20 aircraft. For many weeks Poland contained significant German forces, no advantage of this was taken by the Allies. Besides that, the necessity to reinforce the German military forces destroyed in Poland gave France and Great Britain more time to prepare to repulse invasion.

http://www.ww2.pl/The,1939,Campaign,22.html

While we all can agree that Poland's Army could never have been classified as "the best", an argument could be made that they might have earned the title of "most heroic" indeed.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

First post in a while.

Germany
100%

P.S:I'm working on a book on battles of SS and Heer troops at Narva early to mid 1944. I can post some if anyone is interested.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If anyone should doubt the contribution of the Poles during 1939, a period when their allies did nothing to aid them in their heroic defense, here is a reminder:

The Poles weren't able to defend their country nearly as well as Finland, and if your numbers are correct, the Poles had better odds in terms of manpower.

Polish Campaign:

Polish Forces
1,000,000 soldiers
500 tanks
400 aircraft

German and Soviet Forces
2,300,000 soldiers
2500 tanks
2300 aircraft

Winter War:

Finnish Forces
250,000 soldiers
30 tanks
130 aircraft

Soviet Forces
1,000,000 soldiers
6500 tanks
3800 aircraft

Compare the odds.

EDIT: Here they are, just for you.

Polish Campaign
Soldiers: 2.3 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets
Tanks: 5 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets
Aircraft: 5.75 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets

Winter War
Soldiers: 4 to 1 in favour of Soviets
Tanks: 217 to 1 in favour of Soviets
Aircraft: 29 to 1 in favour of Soviets

While we all can agree that Poland's Army could never have been classified as "the best", an argument could be made that they might have earned the title of "most heroic" indeed.

If that label can even be assigned (which I do not believe it can - how do you classify "most heroic" anyways? However you do it, I'm willing to bet it's excluding Germans), it goes completely, 100% to the Finns, in my opinion.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Evil_Maniac From Mars,

I fully agree. The Finns also had to defend a larger stretch of land (1000km or so) from Soviet forces. This was after Mannerheim had already thought the Soviets would come almost exclusively north near Leningrad. The fact he was able to react and destroy such numbers of Soviet troops in the northern regions was amazing.

On the sea the Finnish units did quite well too. The few ships they had caused problems and coastal artillery took heavy tolls on Soviet fleets on the outset of the attack.

Also, even when Polish units were well equiped and trained by British forces and sent into battle in 1943 and late war years, they were usually decimated by German formations. And these are late war formations mind you.

[rotorgun]

The Poles weren't able to defend their country nearly as well as Finland, and if your numbers are correct, the Poles had better odds in terms of manpower.

Polish Campaign:

Polish Forces
1,000,000 soldiers
500 tanks
400 aircraft

German and Soviet Forces
2,300,000 soldiers
2500 tanks
2300 aircraft

Winter War:

Finnish Forces
250,000 soldiers
30 tanks
130 aircraft

Soviet Forces
1,000,000 soldiers
6500 tanks
3800 aircraft

Compare the odds:

Polish Campaign
Soldiers: 2.3 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets
Tanks: 5 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets
Aircraft: 5.75 to 1 in favour of Germany/Soviets

Winter War
Soldiers: 4 to 1 in favour of Soviets
Tanks: 217 to 1 in favour of Soviets
Aircraft: 29 to 1 in favour of Soviets

If that label can even be assigned (which I do not believe it can - how do you classify "most heroic" anyways? However you do it, I'm willing to bet it's excluding Germans), it goes completely, 100% to the Finns, in my opinion.

Sorry for not getting back sooner on this, and I didn't mean to offend or start a row. I thank you for the interesting comparison of odds. On paper it appears as if the Polish Army should have given a better account of themselves, but numbers alone aren't always the answer. As others have pointed out, the massive numerical advantages of the Red armies were in many ways negated by the severe weather encountered. Also, their attack doctrine was no where near as developed as were the Blitzkrieg operations of the Germans. Still I totally agree that Finland put up a spirited and heroic defense. The initiative of all ranks within the Finnish Army allowed them to take advantage of the blundering, and overconfident Soviet attack. This enabled the Finns to negotiate from a position of strength as the Russians wished to avoid further casualties even though they won. My hat is off to Finland.

The Poles, on the other hand, faced a much different situation entirely. Attacked by a competent enemy with a much superior mobile element as the Panzer Corps, backed up by a modern air force, both tied together with good communications, led by a General Staff that was second to none at the time, all this during near perfect campaign conditions- the result was almost a certainty. Still, the Polish army fought on while knowing that it was futile - even charging into an armored fight with cavalry at one point. Surely one can't fail to be moved.

The final conclusion I draw is that there was no lack of courage in either army. I concede that Finland's soldiery where, and still are among the best in the world. I just don't feel that they were the best.

PS: Neither do I claim the Polish army as the best either. I have yet to stake a claim in this friendly (I hope) discussion.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sorry for not getting back sooner on this, and I didn't mean to offend or start a row. I thank you for the interesting comparison of odds. On paper it appears as if the Polish Army should have given a better account of themselves, but numbers alone aren't always the answer.

Precisely why I believe the Finns had the better army. Remember, part of being a good army is utilizing the terrain you're given.

As others have pointed out, the massive numerical advantages of the Red armies were in many ways negated by the severe weather encountered. Also, their attack doctrine was no where near as developed as were the Blitzkrieg operations of the Germans. Still I totally agree that Finland put up a spirited and heroic defense. The initiative of all ranks within the Finnish Army allowed them to take advantage of the blundering, and overconfident Soviet attack. This enabled the Finns to negotiate from a position of strength as the Russians wished to avoid further casualties even though they won. My hat is off to Finland.

The Poles, on the other hand, faced a much different situation entirely. Attacked by a competent enemy with a much superior mobile element as the Panzer Corps, backed up by a modern air force, both tied together with good communications, led by a General Staff that was second to none at the time, all this during near perfect campaign conditions- the result was almost a certainty. Still, the Polish army fought on while knowing that it was futile - even charging into an armored fight with cavalry at one point. Surely one can't fail to be moved.

Indeed, though the Finns managed to defeat a German army later in the war...

The armoured fight with cavalry has been debunked as at least a partial myth, I'm fairly certain. Perhaps Panzer has a source immediately available?

The final conclusion I draw is that there was no lack of courage in either army. I concede that Finland's soldiery where, and still are among the best in the world. I just don't feel that they were the best.

Indeed, both armies had men with courage in abundance. On the other hand, so did almost every other army in the war - probably the Japanese more than anyone, with almost (and much of the time more than almost) suicidal courage.

I also don't believe the Finns had the best army in the Second World War, simply that they did a better job defending themselves than the Poles. I feel that the Wehrmacht was the strongest both tactically and strategically.

I have yet to stake a claim in this friendly (I hope) discussion.

Very much friendly, I did not mean to come across otherwise. My humble apologies if that is the case.

[PanzerJaeger]

The armoured fight with cavalry has been debunked as at least a partial myth, I'm fairly certain. Perhaps Panzer has a source immediately available?

Mokra was the battle, and the Poles didn't come out too badly. There was never a charge at tanks with cavalry though, more of an accidental meeting.

Krojanty was where the myth originated. Polish cavalry attacked a German infantry battalion and were repulsed. Afterward, Axis journalists were brought to the scene of dead polish cavalry men next to (recently arrived) German tanks. Thus the myth was born. By the way, the Poles had some decent AT stuff, so they would never charge tanks with sabers drawn.

I know Mokra is on wiki, not sure about Krojanty.

[rotorgun]

Danke Panzer, that was timely. I forgot that I have an ASL scenario dealing with that very battle. It certainly made an impression on the Germans though.

See ya'll later.