The Marian Reforms and You.

[Shieldmaiden]

I'm bored on the night shift...

I've been thinking about the Marian Reforms in RTW 1.5, and how to balance the Romans without removing Units.

I'm talking about Praetorian and Urban Cohorts and Cavalry mostly, and wondering - how have others tried to balance them? (just removing them doesn't count )

I'd like to balance the Romans and move them a little closer to history but keep the feel of vanilla RTW 1.5 intact...

I'm open to constructive comments

Ideas floating in my head

Praetorian Cohort - Italy only? Based on the Cohores Praetoria who were all Italians IIRC. Not the Praetorian Guard.

Urban Cohort - Carthage/Lyons/Rome only? Based on the Cohores Urbanica's actual locations. Works for Greeks and Spartans.

Praetorian Cavalry - Rome only? Based on - I think - Praetorian Guard which included both Inf and Cav.

Excuse my crap Latin and history.

[Magraev]

If you want to weaken the romans a bit I think it's a good idea to limit these troops (urbans and praetorians) to being available in the city of Rome. I wouldn't allow their recruitment anywhere else. You could increase recruitment times too.

The other infantry-troops are plenty strong enough anyways, but the italian peninsula would be a tough nut to crack for anybody willing to try. I still think Rome would dominate, since they often do that even before the reforms in my games.

I also think the roman navy is too strong. But that's another story.

Good luck with your project.

[Shieldmaiden]

If you want to weaken the romans a bit I think it's a good idea to limit these troops (urbans and praetorians) to being available in the city of Rome. I wouldn't allow their recruitment anywhere else. You could increase recruitment times too.

I like longer recruitment times Plus its consistent - Praetorians/Urbans are meant to be the elite, in training and equipment. Its not like throwing a normal Cohort together...

Note: an alternative idea to limiting locations was to make uber units require a Forge (i.e - Praetorian Cavalry would require a L5 Stable and Forge) to reflect the equipment cost.

The other infantry-troops are plenty strong enough anyways, but the italian peninsula would be a tough nut to crack for anybody willing to try. I still think Rome would dominate, since they often do that even before the reforms in my games.

True. Though IMHO Rome is meant to be dominating.

I also think the roman navy is too strong. But that's another story.

Good luck with your project.

Thank you very much

[Quintus.JC]

I also tried to keep Rome:TW closer to history. Never train Urban Cohorts, Praetorians are stationed in Rome only. The bulk of my armies are made of overwhelmingly Legionaries with one unit of 1st Cohort. Legionary cavalry are too strong in the game but I used them anyway. And also try not to use Quinquireme, Rome historically never had such a good navy.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Without messing about with stats, I would place Early Legionary Cohorts everywhere, Legionary Cohorts in Italy and coastal Mediterranean cities, Praetorian Cohorts in Italy only and Urban Cohorts only in Rome. I would also extend first cohorts to Italy only, but more so the Romans can recruit them pre-civil war more than anything.

With messing about with stats you can place them almost anywhere and not have to suffer the pain. Legionary Cohorts in my game, for example, are basically the equivalent of a heavily armoured Hastatii (same attack, defence skill and stamina, but slightly higher everything else). Praetorians are slightly better, while Urbans are a little better, yet not much better, than that.

Essentially, any Roman unit will equalise or even get beaten by a similar level unit from any other faction. This appears to slow them down a little, and results in fairer battles.

[Shieldmaiden]

Without messing about with stats, I would place Early Legionary Cohorts everywhere, Legionary Cohorts in Italy and coastal Mediterranean cities, Praetorian Cohorts in Italy only and Urban Cohorts only in Rome. I would also extend first cohorts to Italy only, but more so the Romans can recruit them pre-civil war more than anything.

With messing about with stats you can place them almost anywhere and not have to suffer the pain. Legionary Cohorts in my game, for example, are basically the equivalent of a heavily armoured Hastatii (same attack, defence skill and stamina, but slightly higher everything else). Praetorians are slightly better, while Urbans are a little better, yet not much better, than that.

Essentially, any Roman unit will equalise or even get beaten by a similar level unit from any other faction. This appears to slow them down a little, and results in fairer battles.

Thank you.

I'm not going to change stats - this is more to sort out the composition of Roman armies (particularly if AI) and bring them more inline with history and other Factions uber units.

Reading up on Praetorians and Urbans, I conclude that:

Cohortes Urbanae (Urban Cohorts) policed Rome and provided a a counterpoint to Praetorian power. Requiring hidden_resource Rome is consistent with history. Longer training time too?

Cohors Praetoria (Praetorian Cohorts) were a General or VIP's tent (praetorium) guard. They consisted of Infantry and Cavalry, and were Italians from Etruria, Latium, or Umbria until much later on. hidden_resource Italy is consistent for RTW's time period. Longer training time too? Note: in RTW they're missing the Hardy attribute - intentional or not?

Presumably RTW Praetorian Cavalry is based on the equites singulares augusti, the horseguard who escorted the Emperor. hidden_resource Rome is consistent with it. Longer training time too?

[Magraev]

That sounds reasonable.

I'd up training times for all those to at least 2 turns (3 if at 2 already).

Maybe remove quinq's as stated above - Rome never was about quality ships, but managed to win naval battles more through numbers and luck.

[Caliburn]

Playing with house rules (Praetorian/Urban cohorts at homelands, limited Heavy Cavalry etc) has worked for me, though. Too bad I can't resist the temptation to upgrade my units, so I kinda see why you're planning on this.

I myself am considering starting a campaign where Marian reform has been removed, so that I can finally really get a fair mileage out of pre-Marian Roman armies. Thus far I've never really had the chance to use Triarii for example...

I guess I'll fiddle around with unit speeds while I'm at it.

[Shieldmaiden]

Thank you! Here's my current:

- Praetorian Cohorts trainable in Italy only. Added Hardy attribute. Not 100% certain.

- Praetorian Cavalry and Urban Cohort trainable in Rome only.

- Experience bonus added to Circus Maximus and Urban Barracks for Legionary Cavalry and Legionary Cohort respectively. Otherwise their useless buildings if not in Rome.

- 3 turns training (Normal unit size, from 2). Not 100% certain...

To consider:

- Quintremes(sp) and Scipii Neptune ships, limit ports they're recruitable from (Quint) and/or longer training time too? Need to read up and get input on Roman navies!

- Cavalry Auxilia. Its auxilia available pre-Marius. Could change it to post-Marius and rebalance xp bonus for Equites in stables. Thoughts?

I appreciate everyones replies and its very interesting to read how other people tweaked Romans in RTW :)

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Something I've done in my game is add a slightly different barracks recruitment system. For example:

Barracks Level I - Unit I trainable
Barracks Level II - Unit II trainable, Unit I trainable +1 experience
Barracks Level III - Unit III trainable, Unit II trainable +1 experience, Unit I trainable +2 experience
Barracks Level IV - Unit IV trainable, Unit III trainable +1 experience, Unit II trainable +2 experience, Unit I trainable +3 experience

And so on and so forth.

I'm not sure whether you'd consider it, but for me it seems to be logical - in some cases higher level barracks do not train anything and only add experience to units. Also it seems sensible that better training facilities should be able to train all troops to an improved quality - not just existing ones.

This does, however, make things a little less fair for factions which have limited barracks infrastructure. To counteract it, I attached doubled experience onto selected levels of barracks construction to, after construction of all levels, provide an equal available level of experience.

Although the way I have done it there is no contribution to balance, it could be manipulated to give weaker factions advantages over others. For example, you could place a double bonus on a low level building to give an early advantage in the case of a usually rapidly destroyed faction. You could also add a larger bonus on a faction which you want to expand later rather than earlier.

It's a bit of a mad idea, but I hope it's useful

[Shieldmaiden]

Something I've done in my game is add a slightly different barracks recruitment system. For example:

Barracks Level I - Unit I trainable
Barracks Level II - Unit II trainable, Unit I trainable +1 experience
Barracks Level III - Unit III trainable, Unit II trainable +1 experience, Unit I trainable +2 experience
Barracks Level IV - Unit IV trainable, Unit III trainable +1 experience, Unit II trainable +2 experience, Unit I trainable +3 experience

And so on and so forth.

I'm not sure whether you'd consider it, but for me it seems to be logical - in some cases higher level barracks do not train anything and only add experience to units. Also it seems sensible that better training facilities should be able to train all troops to an improved quality - not just existing ones.

This does, however, make things a little less fair for factions which have limited barracks infrastructure. To counteract it, I attached doubled experience onto selected levels of barracks construction to, after construction of all levels, provide an equal available level of experience.

Although the way I have done it there is no contribution to balance, it could be manipulated to give weaker factions advantages over others. For example, you could place a double bonus on a low level building to give an early advantage in the case of a usually rapidly destroyed faction. You could also add a larger bonus on a faction which you want to expand later rather than earlier.

It's a bit of a mad idea, but I hope it's useful

Its a good idea, a case-by-case one IMHO

A few factions do suffer later on - i.e - The Greek Cities, L5 Stables for Incendiary Pigs? I thought Greece was known for its horses not its bacon...

I'm very interested to know how people have tweaked non-Roman factions to be more competitive

[Spartan198]

L5 Stables for Incendiary Pigs? I thought Greece was known for its horses not its bacon...

That's a good one.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any tips for making the vanilla Seleucids more formidable?

[Magraev]

The Seleucids don't need much tweaking imho. They have one of the nicest rosters around! It should be hard to be overstretched and have multiple enemies all around you.

If you want to help them a bit you could improve barracks and/or stables in a city or two. Those levy pikemen are a liability.

On the other hand the egyptians need to be put down a notch or two - that's probably the main problem for the Seleucids. I usually remove about half the egyptian population from the nile valley and all their chariots. Since chariots get a large bonus in autocalc this (combined with less taxes) make the egyptians more manageable. I also sometimes remove chariots as buildable from the blacksmith.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Somebody wrote a huge essay on why the Seleucid Empires ends up getting defeated so early - it's mainly due to military starting positions resulting in failure to generate early success. You can read it here.

I would definitely, as Magraev has said, boosting up some Barracks though - if only so that most places have the capacity to train Levy Pikemen and a few to train the standard Pikemen. They do a lot better in autoresolve than the Millita hoplites they normally train stack after stack of in the early game.

[Spartan198]

The Seleucids don't need much tweaking imho. They have one of the nicest rosters around! It should be hard to be overstretched and have multiple enemies all around you.

If you want to help them a bit you could improve barracks and/or stables in a city or two. Those levy pikemen are a liability.

On the other hand the egyptians need to be put down a notch or two - that's probably the main problem for the Seleucids. I usually remove about half the egyptian population from the nile valley and all their chariots. Since chariots get a large bonus in autocalc this (combined with less taxes) make the egyptians more manageable. I also sometimes remove chariots as buildable from the blacksmith.

Okay, thanks.

[Shieldmaiden]

Update and a few thoughts :)

Using a Scipii long campaign as a test:

Currently 215BC, I own Spain, Sardina, Sicily, Africa, and most of Palestine. Mopping up the Egyptians ATM.

Praetorian Cohorts: req Italy (based on Cohors Praetoria a General or VIP's tent (praetorium) guard. Italians from Etruria, Latium, or Umbria).

Mine are mopping up Rebels in Italy due to Legionary Cohorts being easier to retrain everywhere else. Oh, and my Faction Leader has 2 kept in reserve.

Urban Cohorts: req. Carthage, Rome, or Lugdunum (based on Cohortes Urbanae policing Rome and important cities).

I've yet to train an Urban Cohort due to retraining difficulty - I don't have Rome or Lugdunum, only Carthage. However I'll be using 1 or 2 to mop up African Rebels.

Rome only would be less interesting and it has unique Infantry - the First Cohorts - so I looked up the actual Urban/City Cohort locations (Carthage and Lyons (Lugdunum)).

Cavalry Auxilia : req. Marian Reforms.

I can't honestly say I missed them, oh except against Carthage's Elephants.

Legionary Cavalry: unchanged.

Definately OP if recruitable everywhere. Any Roman Army buffs care to chip in? I felt cheap training and using them in Egypt...

Praetorian Cavalry: req Rome (based on equites singulares augusti, the emperor's horseguard).

OP if recruitable everywhere (or even Italy). Romes only unique Cavalry.

1 problem (Legionary Cavalry) but its nudging the uber units towards history. A little bit. Advice appreciated as always!

[RLucid]

I also tried to keep Rome:TW closer to history. Never train Urban Cohorts, Praetorians are stationed in Rome only. The bulk of my armies are made of overwhelmingly Legionaries with one unit of 1st Cohort. Legionary cavalry are too strong in the game but I used them anyway. And also try not to use Quinquireme, Rome historically never had such a good navy.

Hmmmmm, think about that! If Rome didn't have a Dominant Navy, why did Hannibal from a recognised Naval Power of Carthage have to march an army long way through the Alps. Why couldn't he be reinforced by sea by Hasdrubal, but have him be defeated in detail in N. Italy? Why couldn't Hannibal blockade and successfully siege Rome?

Actually the Romans defeated Carthage by copying their Quinquireme's, and adding a "Corvus" to facilitate deck based Infantry fighting, rather than ramming etc.

Up to expansion into Sicily, Rome had not been a naval power, but they proved very adaptable and willing to take the best military technologies of other peoples and deploy them themselves.


Finally, I wonder if the OP, has heard of the Vanilla Play Balance Mod (PBM). It adds land bridges to aid natural AI expansion and improve routing, as well as attempt to balance all the factions to make for a less predictable game (though I actually think the Britannia is too nerfed to be interesting to play).

[Shieldmaiden]

Hmmmmm, think about that! If Rome didn't have a Dominant Navy, why did Hannibal from a recognised Naval Power of Carthage have to march an army long way through the Alps. Why couldn't he be reinforced by sea by Hasdrubal, but have him be defeated in detail in N. Italy? Why couldn't Hannibal blockade and successfully siege Rome?

Actually the Romans defeated Carthage by copying their Quinquireme's, and adding a "Corvus" to facilitate deck based Infantry fighting, rather than ramming etc.

Up to expansion into Italy, Rome had not been a naval power, but they proved very adaptable and willing to take the best military technologies of other peoples and deploy them themselves.


Finally, I wonder if the OP, has heard of the Vanilla Play Balance Mod (PBM). It adds land bridges to aid natural AI expansion and improve routing, as well as attempt to balance all the factions to make for a less predictable game (though I actually think the Britannia is too nerfed to be interesting to play).

Interesting.

And yes I've heard of - and tried - the PBM.

I've just tried to mod - and bugfix - vanilla to be a little more consistent with history without removing units, etc. Tidying up vanilla as opposed to changing it a lot.

I learnt about RTW modding just by trying to bugfix and correct - I didn't know about player1's bugfixer or PBM at the time. I'd never modded before...

Once its bugfixed and playtested I'll upload it in case somebodies interested

[Magraev]

It's funny that modding can be so much fun.

I actually often spend more time modding a game than I do playing it... Once I determine that everything works as it should I tend to lose interest.

Looks like you have made a well thought out effort, that won't have too big an impact on the gameplay.

[Shieldmaiden]

It's funny that modding can be so much fun.

I actually often spend more time modding a game than I do playing it... Once I determine that everything works as it should I tend to lose interest.

Oh I know! Just playtested the modding... in between more modding.

Looks like you have made a well thought out effort, that won't have too big an impact on the gameplay.

Thank you. I'm not happy with it yet though. Must read up more about Praetorian use