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Thread: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...ran/index.html

    When you're invading a country to liberate their people and be their saviours from an evil tyranny, it's a wonderful thing to have guys like these running about... They sure do help.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #2
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...ran/index.html

    When you're invading a country to liberate their people and be their saviours from an evil tyranny, it's a wonderful thing to have guys like these running about... They sure do help.


    What nonsense. And why the grovelling apology? It makes you sick.

    The article quotes the "Association of Muslim Scholars". They "condemn this heinous crime against God's holy book, the Constitution of this nation, a source of pride and dignity," the groups statement said, "they condemned the silence by all those who are part of the occupation's agenda and holds the occupation and the current government fully responsible for this violation and reminds everyone that God preserves his book and he [God] is a great avenger."

    If I were that American officer I'd shoot the entire Association and shove the apology up their hypocritical dead backsides.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  3. #3

    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Next time, shoot the guy holding the koran. What are they teaching our soldiers?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    Next time, shoot the guy holding the koran. What are they teaching our soldiers?
    So every muslim is your enemies? That thing about liberating the Iraqi people were just a load of bull?

    Yes PJ, I know you were joking. My point isn't that "all yanks are babymurderers" or anything like that. But, every wants a peaceful end to the war, right? Preferably one that doesn't include the killing of every last Iraqi, or a withdrawal and defeat? Well, to accomplish that, one should perhaps try to avoid pissing people off... And desecrating what people see as holy is a bit more likely to piss them off than making them your friend...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    I can see that it's disrespectful and why muslims would resent the "gesture", but why get so worked up about it? It's as if the physical paper is Holy, rather than just carrier of the message...
    Last edited by Kralizec; 05-18-2008 at 11:42.

  6. #6
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    Next time, shoot the guy holding the koran. What are they teaching our soldiers?


    HoreTore, soldiers can't be diplomats. I am not going to make the obligatory jokes about Scandinavian peacekeepers if you won't make the obligatory references to trigger-happy yanks.

    The AMSI consistently blames all violence in Iraq on the 'criminal occupation' and its 'hidden program of ethnic cleansing'. Yeah right.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    HoreTore, soldiers can't be diplomats.
    Of course they have to be diplomats. The Iraq population needs to have a good view of the occupation force, don't they? If the civillians see the soldiers not as their friends who are there to help them, but as enemies who are going to kill them, how can there be peace? It will make it impossible to destroy those fighting against the occupation, because more people will be recruited.

    If this war is to see a good ending, the soldier have to be seen as a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    The AMSI consistently blames all violence in Iraq on the 'criminal occupation' and its 'hidden program of ethnic cleansing'. Yeah right.
    Yeah, they're lunatics. Not disputing that...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  8. #8
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Yeah, they're lunatics. Not disputing that...
    Well, it makes me sick to see an American officer make a grovelling apology to a bunch of moustaches who are knee-deep in Sunni sectarian violence. I truly believe nobody over there has a clue anymore, but maybe that's a different subject.

    P.S. I think this apology ties in with the (2006) plan to woo the Sunnis. Sunni 'awakening councils' were created, their members were given ten dollars a day, a weapon and a promise of future re-employment by the central government. Thus creating a 100.000 strong Sunni militia that will be ready for civil war the moment the U.S. withdraw. Not a thank-you has been forthcoming. Instead their spiritual leadership is blaming the U.S. for everything that is wrong in Iraq.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
    Last edited by Adrian II; 05-18-2008 at 12:38.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Of course they have to be diplomats. The Iraq population needs to have a good view of the occupation force, don't they? If the civillians see the soldiers not as their friends who are there to help them, but as enemies who are going to kill them, how can there be peace? It will make it impossible to destroy those fighting against the occupation, because more people will be recruited.


    Well said.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  10. #10

    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore

    Yes PJ, I know you were joking. My point isn't that "all yanks are babymurderers" or anything like that. But, every wants a peaceful end to the war, right? Preferably one that doesn't include the killing of every last Iraqi, or a withdrawal and defeat? Well, to accomplish that, one should perhaps try to avoid pissing people off... And desecrating what people see as holy is a bit more likely to piss them off than making them your friend...
    Thats why the good general was out front doing some serious damage control.

    Lets hope the Sunnis show some maturity and don't go cartoon-bat-****-crazy on us. Sounds as though the immediate chieftain accepted the apology.

  11. #11
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
    Nah, nobody would've damned them if they didn't have idiots shooting up holy books...

    The symbolism is extremely heavy on this one. The Quran symbolises every muslim, the US soldier used it for target pratice... Nice, eh? Just the message every westerner wants to send the muslim world... "We don't hate your extremists, we hate every one of you".
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II

    If I were that American officer I'd shoot the entire Association and shove the apology up their hypocritical dead backsides.
    Amen bro. I might too question why we are still dealing with these reactionary, women-beating, double-dealing, miniature despots, these tribal leaders.

    Sure, they can keep their gangsters from targeting occupation forces for a while, and turn them loose on Shia, Christians, and Palestinian refugees instead.

    I think a lot of them are more trouble than they’re worth. They relish in their hyped significance. In fact, I believe that there will never be a fully effective central government in Iraq, as long as these little warlords are allocated this kind of importance. And I am talking about an apology in a case of religious importance, not territorial disputes or we-are-sorry-our-smartbomb-blew-up-a-truck-full-of-tribal-gunmen-from-your-clan issues.

    It is like in Afghanistan. These tribal leaders are important to maintain local peace, but given too much power, they will undermine national stability.

    Meh, what a mess.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    There must be a King James bible laying about somewhere in that town. Film the local chieftan shooting holes in it, then let there be celebratory AK47 gunfire everywhere, and women trilling, and young men jumping for joy as they avenge the insult.

    Even-steven. Cultural retribution - which seems to be the only operating principle that actually works in that place - accomplished.

    Next insult incident, please.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    The symbolism is extremely heavy on this one. The Quran symbolises every muslim, the US soldier used it for target pratice... Nice, eh? Just the message every westerner wants to send the muslim world... "We don't hate your extremists, we hate every one of you".
    If you think that Muslims are truly offended by such an act, you have a surprise or two coming.

    Devout Muslims will shrug it off. Only clerics and warlords concerned with their prestige and power will make an issue out of it. Whatever this is about, it is not about religious sensitivities. That's the whole point here, HoreTore, and you are missing it by a mile.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    At the same time though, shooting up a Koran seems like a deliberate insult, or an act of utter stupidity. That seems to be HoreTore's point.

    Regardless, grovelling to the Iraqis helps not one jot. A Simple, "It shouldn't have happened, the man responsible has been sent home" should be sufficient.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    That soldier's a complete moron. I mean, what on earth was he thinking? Its stupid crap like this that keeps giving the clerics more ammo to recruit with, sheesh.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Sheikh Hamadi al-Qirtani, in a speech on behalf of all tribal sheiks of Radhwaniya, called the incident "aggression against the entire Islamic world."
    Oh please!
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Too bad we don't have the hole-y holy book to look at; some folks will want to know whether the Sergeant got a good, tight shot-group at least.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Well I think the article said it was "riddled" with holes and he's a sniper, so maybe he should be discharged as incompetant.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Too bad we don't have the hole-y holy book to look at; some folks will want to know whether the Sergeant got a good, tight shot-group at least.
    Now you're invoking the Wrath of Gregoshi.

    You are so mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    Well I think the article said it was "riddled" with holes and he's a sniper
    Well there you go. This thread is now officially shot to shreds.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 05-18-2008 at 17:22.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    If you think that Muslims are truly offended by such an act, you have a surprise or two coming.
    I don't. But the demagouges will. And they will use it. And they will be succesful at convincing people that this was an act of evil and that the US is against all muslims, not just some bad guys. Why on earth are they given such extraordinary chances to spread hatred? They sure have more than enough even when people play nice, I see no reason to intentionally give them more material to work with.

    That they've been succesful is already clear, there have already been riots. Ok, so there wasn't a billion people rioting, but it was still a riot when our objective is to have no riots at all, meaning one too many.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  22. #22
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    I don't. But the demagouges will. And they will use it. And they will be succesful at convincing people that this was an act of evil and that the US is against all muslims, not just some bad guys. Why on earth are they given such extraordinary chances to spread hatred? They sure have more than enough even when people play nice, I see no reason to intentionally give them more material to work with.

    That they've been succesful is already clear, there have already been riots. Ok, so there wasn't a billion people rioting, but it was still a riot when our objective is to have no riots at all, meaning one too many.
    So your opinion of 'the Iraqi street' is that they are easily-influenced by demagogues, and prone to riot and hatred in reaction to the actions of a single stupid american?

    Unlike we here, who are not so easily influenced?
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  23. #23
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Unlike we here, who are not so easily influenced?
    You sure touch a nerve there. Without wanting to be altogether unpleasant, I would say that HoreTore's image of Muslims is rather akin to that of little children who will be upset by a scary picture or by someone inadvertently stepping on their favourite toy. Clerics in particular should be expected to be way above this abominable level of fetishism.

    Let's take our cue from someone like Dâriűsh who unfortunately visits the Backroom all too rarely, possibly because he is totally fed up with the endless abuse of his cherished beliefs by both ill-advised opponents and ill-informed sympathisers. He probably couldn't care less if some frustrated little sergeant shoots a hole in a book, and he is apparently much more upset by the bunch of unwashed local tyrants who are offered to the world as somehow representing his faith.

    Can't say I blame him.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  24. #24
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    So your opinion of 'the Iraqi street' is that they are easily-influenced by demagogues, and prone to riot and hatred in reaction to the actions of a single stupid american?

    Unlike we here, who are not so easily influenced?
    Look at the pictures from the riots, more than enough evidence there.

    And no, I do not think they are different from us. I can sure remember a bunch of riots over extremely silly things here in europe too.

    Here in Norway, we've got a special group to handle such situations, called Blitz. Whenever some insignificant thing happens, like a conservative saying he's not too fond of gay people, you might as well get your broom ready to sweep up the broken shop windows.

    The thing is, Norway isn't in a state of war where people are dying, so such situations doesn't matter. Iraq, however, is, and requires a lot more care.

    On a related note, why should the Iraqi's be perfectly rational in their actions? They're seeing their country destroyed by war, and we all love to find scapegoats. The US army makes a terrific scapegoat since they're the foreign ones(not a lot of fun to blame yourself), even more so when they do idiotic stuff like this.

    Anyway, does anyone here think that this was a smart move? That doing this reduces the number of enemies? Hey, what a wonderful idea, instead of targetting radicals, the army could just burn every copy of the Quran and then there will be peace!
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  25. #25
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Riots? Your linked CNN report had no reference to them. Link?

    The closest thing I saw was:
    Tribal leaders, dignitaries and local security officials attended the ceremony, while residents carried banners and chanted slogans, including "Yes, yes to the Quran" and "America out, out."
    and the vid-clip of about 40 guys doing a call-response in Arabic to an off-camera cheerleader.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  26. #26
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Haha, Morons.

    By morons, I mean the people who are actually offended by this.



  27. #27
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Haha, Morons.

    By morons, I mean the people who are actually offended by this.
    I guess that includes the army 2-star who felt moved to offer a ceremonial apology?
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  28. #28
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    And I know one officer who has an urgent appointment with a bottle of whisky tonight.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  29. #29
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    I guess that includes the army 2-star who felt moved to offer a ceremonial apology?
    Not exactly. He wasn't offended. He had to appear to be offended to keep the peace.



  30. #30
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning the hearts and minds, yet again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    And I know one officer who has an urgent appointment with a bottle of whisky tonight.
    I've got one with a bottle of scotch...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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