How to make LOTS of money

[artaxerxes]

I'm asking this question because comments in here have revealed to me that it is possible to get much larger sums of money out of even a rather small country than I seem capable of getting out of a major empire. Also, the price for upkeep of some units have led me to believe that greater profits must be avalable somehow.

I play as Seleucids. I make around 3-4000 Mnai each turn. I have a rather large army in the former capitol of the Pahlava and they have been all but destroyed - they got 1 settlement left, their standing army is too small to defeat my nearest garrison, yet too big to be supported by their 1 settlement, so they won't be able to build new units and thus they'll NEVER be able to defeat me ;)
East of it, I had a rather large army now split into several contigents guarding the conquered Baktria from rioting and the one remaining settlement of Baktria. I also have a few small armies in the process of conquering India.
I have an expensive army in Jerusalem (tried spelling it the other way and it didn't work ) and Bostra - enough to keep the Ptollies at bay so far - and NO I WON'T invade Egypt, no matter what it means economically, cos' I've played as Seleucids before and I'm SICK of fighting in Egypt, just as I don't want to get into war with Carthage, which I always do when I conquer Egypt, and that would mean EVEN MORE war in Africa. I have an Asian empire that's the point.
I've conquered Pontus and all of Asia Minor save Halicarnassus. I lost Byzantion to the KH and now I'm trying to field as large an army as possible outside of Nicaean to repel the repeated attacks of the rather large (defeated Makedonia and Getai and made Epirus a protectorate) KH.
And I'm making 3000 Mnai each turn. My army in Nicaea is NEVER large enough. I always JUST win the battles with invading KH because I'm bloody lucky and because the AI is a worse strategian than me (though not much worse ). And each time, I lose 80% of my army, and JUST manage to round up new forces before their next attack - while they have another full-stack sitting in Byzantion which (luckily since it would crush my entire western frontier) never partakes in the invasions.
And the reason my army in Nicaea is always JUST finished when the attacks come, is because 3000 Mnai a turn means I can't recruit more than 1 or 2 units a turn + I have to use already existing military structures, since I got no money to upgrade ém - so all my infantry has to walk all the way from Antiocheia since I haven't got anything nearer to recruit in. And the reason I can NEVER invade Greece (I really just want Byzantion back, since it was mine before KH took it - otherwise I got no plans for a major conquest) is because that if I'm EVER lucky to have an extra couple of turns so I can build my army large enough to BOTH defeat invasions AND survive these invasions and itself invade... Then I go BANKRUPT. The upkeep to a couple more units shifts the balance, and since I'm troubled by repeated riots in Iran, I usually have to build extra units there too.
Now, I've never made any great use of family members, though I try as best to have a governor in most towns. The sheer size of my empire´+ the poor performance of my computer, means, however, that I'm less than inclined to bother transferring stray family members from Mesopotamia and into Baktria all for the sake of the few 100 Mnais that their low skills allow them to force out of border towns. I got mines in Asia Minor, but having described my economic situation, you can see how I can't save for any more in the near future. Some peaceful turns allow for the building of a market, but nothing that really changes the situation.
The point of this extremely long and probably impressively boring tale is: WHY can I rule the vastest empire in the world, including more or less ALL of Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, Iran, Syria, Palestine and the East, and still NOT be able to fund more than 2 armies in the east, 1 in Palestine and 1 rather huge one in Asia Minor... Suppose I was attacked by Hayasdan or Saba? How should I respond? What am I doing wrong? Where does my noob-ishness show? Shouldn't such an empire ACCUMULATE wealth, instead of swallowing it? What are YOUR tricks for getting money? Since Elephants from India (which I would SOOOO like to throw into the mess of KH troops) cost 1000 Mnai or more in upkeep, the ENTIRE WEALTH OF MY VAST EMPIRE ALLOWS FOR THE UPKEEP OF MAXIMUM 3 OF THOSE UNITS!!!!!!! This is where I realize there's something wrong. And I guess, if somebody can help me, it ain't anyone in the game, cos' there everybody's at war with me... so I turn to you, the dear 'we get 16000+ out of Pella alone'-guys

[Korlon]

Any chance you can upload your save here? I want to check out exactly what you're doing wrong instead of just giving general tips.

[artaxerxes]

Sorry, played it at my father's, then went back to my mum in the afternoon, so, I'd like to, but can't;(... But really, I don't think I'm doing something wrong, I rather think I'm NOT DOING something ;) Like, I merely leave the settlements to themselves, I try to build mines, ports and markets when I can, plus keep riots down with a kinda random assortment of cultural buildings + low taxes for places where I have no choice (Zadrakata, Perspepolis, Hecatompylos + anything newly conquered). Otherwise I don't do very much. What I'm really asking is, is there anything else to do? I may be just whining. My land is, after all, newly acquired thru conquest, so I wasn't expecting the Babylon of Oliver Stone's 'Alexander'. But I was expecting being able to afford elephants or just proper border guards ;)

FX I was wondering if you guys train your family members to be brilliant governors (through some devious training that I can't comprehend ;) - I merely got that winning battles might make you a better general otherwise I don't know anything about character improvement, and play the game as a strategy game, ignoring that factor completely ) and then send 'em off to your settlements...

[d'Arthez]

Mines and ports make you the most money. Although, sadly for the Seleukids, you don't get that much money out of trade.

Don't use bigger garrisons than needed. Public order bonus first, and hopefully the Skirmishers / Pantodapoi are strong enough to deal with the basic rebel scum.

Distance to capital penalty: it not only affects trade and such, but also Public Order (Distance to Capital) penalty. Try to put your capital in the most central city. You can use the financial screen to see what is ideal. It can literally save you about 5-10k Mnai per season!

Manage family members well. Don't rely too much on governors (lvl4 government). It looks a freebie, but you actually pay hefty sums for their upkeep.

As much as you may hate it, conquering Alexandreia and Memphis may be a sound idea afterall. Ptollies have a very limited area for Homeland Recruitment, which means their elites come only from these cities. Once those are under your control they will find it harder to send meaningful armies towards you.

In Alexandreia, you could just set 14 units of Eastern Slingers or basic Persian Archers on Large Stone Walls (cross your fingers the city does NOT have epic walls). As annoying as an automatic 3000 vs 0 heroic victory may seem, it does cripple them, and the stacks will virtually disappear.

[craziii]

get mines, ports only generate money if there are loads of it. mines gives you thousands for each of them. to build mines you need to save loads of money first though. provinces with gold or silver mines earns more, copper mine provinces alot less. there are provinces in which trade can bring in loads.

[Korlon]

Are you using guard mode at all in your battles? Especially in sieges? Get some phalangitai in your usually invaded cities as well. Stick them at the town square, two or three to each entrance, and watch as you kill entire stacks with minimal losses, if at all.

In my cities that are frequently besieged, I tend not to recruit missile troops either.

[artaxerxes]

Mines and ports make you the most money. Although, sadly for the Seleukids, you don't get that much money out of trade.

Don't use bigger garrisons than needed. Public order bonus first, and hopefully the Skirmishers / Pantodapoi are strong enough to deal with the basic rebel scum.

Distance to capital penalty: it not only affects trade and such, but also Public Order (Distance to Capital) penalty. Try to put your capital in the most central city. You can use the financial screen to see what is ideal. It can literally save you about 5-10k Mnai per season!

Manage family members well. Don't rely too much on governors (lvl4 government). It looks a freebie, but you actually pay hefty sums for their upkeep.

As much as you may hate it, conquering Alexandreia and Memphis may be a sound idea afterall. Ptollies have a very limited area for Homeland Recruitment, which means their elites come only from these cities. Once those are under your control they will find it harder to send meaningful armies towards you.

In Alexandreia, you could just set 14 units of Eastern Slingers or basic Persian Archers on Large Stone Walls (cross your fingers the city does NOT have epic walls). As annoying as an automatic 3000 vs 0 heroic victory may seem, it does cripple them, and the stacks will virtually disappear.

The thing about capitol is VERY interesting. So far I've been very proud of keeping Babylon as my capitol because of a personal affinity for the place. But since my current situation prevents me from ever fulfilling my goal of making Babylon a mighty city full of great buildings, since I absolutely NEVER have the money to build anything for aesthetical reasons, a fully-built non-capitol Babylon would satisfy this urge of mine as well as a completely wasted capitol Babylon would
I might just conquer northern Egypt. But they're really not much of a threat anymore. And I don't think my army in Jerusalem/Bostra is particularly expensive: three Successor Medium Cavalry + six phalanx of that type with golden shields and red clothes (the one that's better than the ones merely in bronze) + three phalanx of the type that's even better (steel-coloured shields). They beat any Ptollie army :) - and I think the Ptollies have had so many defeats at the walls of Jerusalem that they've given up that war... I think - not enough to disband, though ;)

Would more lvl 3 and 4 governments, as opposed to lvl 2s, be a good idea?

[artaxerxes]

get mines, ports only generate money if there are loads of it. mines gives you thousands for each of them. to build mines you need to save loads of money first though. provinces with gold or silver mines earns more, copper mine provinces alot less. there are provinces in which trade can bring in loads.

Seeing as I've been building mines completely at random, that IS advice I like :)...


As for the phalanx question: if you wait out a siege (where you're the besieged) don't you just automatically lose the settlement when the siege has lasted long enough... unless the besieger decides to storm, don't you HAVE to sally forth at some point... Or have I misunderstood something here?


Btw. Two battle questions, I've never gotten. Maybe I'm just stupid: any way to make ranged units attack with melee weapons INSTEAD of range even if they still have ammo left? And any way to make units move backwards WITHOUT turning around (like having a phalanx retreat slowly WITHOUT turning its lances around and thus turning its unguarded back on the enemy)?

thx for the advice so far :)

[Korlon]

As for the phalanx question: if you wait out a siege (where you're the besieged) don't you just automatically lose the settlement when the siege has lasted long enough... unless the besieger decides to storm, don't you HAVE to sally forth at some point... Or have I misunderstood something here?

The AI practically always decides to attack the settlement within the first three turns. If you keep the garrison small, it's pretty much definite that they'll attack very soon. Even if the garrison's large, they'll still probably attack.

Btw. Two battle questions, I've never gotten. Maybe I'm just stupid: any way to make ranged units attack with melee weapons INSTEAD of range even if they still have ammo left?

Alt click.

And any way to make units move backwards WITHOUT turning around (like having a phalanx retreat slowly WITHOUT turning its lances around and thus turning its unguarded back on the enemy)?

Nope, and those aren't lances...

[artaxerxes]

Alt click.

Thanks :)

Nope, and those aren't lances...

hehe, told you I was a noob ;) Anyway, thanks :)

[Korlon]

I might just conquer northern Egypt. But they're really not much of a threat anymore. And I don't think my army in Jerusalem/Bostra is particularly expensive: three Successor Medium Cavalry + six phalanx of that type with golden shields and red clothes (the one that's better than the ones merely in bronze) + three phalanx of the type that's even better (steel-coloured shields). They beat any Ptollie army :) - and I think the Ptollies have had so many defeats at the walls of Jerusalem that they've given up that war... I think - not enough to disband, though ;)

That might be part of the reason why you're not gaining too much money. Your army's expensive! Seriously, three units of Argyraspidai plus six of those what I'm guessing to be Klerouchoi Phalangitai is fairly high upkeep. You can do almost the same with those cheap Pantodapoi Phalangitai.

And you can probably go without a lot of that cavalry as well. I usually just use my general as my horses. Sometimes maybe another one, but usually not.

And if you have elephants, DISBAND THEM. Elephants are fun units for when you're rich, not when your income's only 3000-4000 mnai a turn.

Would more lvl 3 and 4 governments, as opposed to lvl 2s, be a good idea?

I usually just build as high as I can... I don't remember the economic advantages of each, but you should choose governments based on recruitment pools.

[artaxerxes]

[QUOTE=Korlon]The AI practically always decides to attack the settlement within the first three turns. If you keep the garrison small, it's pretty much definite that they'll attack very soon. Even if the garrison's large, they'll still probably attack.QUOTE]

As soon as I visit my father again and play the game once again, my first deed shall be to disband all cavalry that I can find :) now, THAT will also save me money BIG TIME, so thx... You saved my empire (well sorta, still got the problem that I'm at war with everybody and my tactical abilities are as bad as the AI's... )

This would even give me the ability to withstand KH attacks on Nicaea with just a few phalanxes (even though good ones, since KH uses phalanxes as well...) and then prepare my invasion in peace and safety.

[Korlon]

Yep, if you do visit your father, remember to upload the save... I can probably give better advice from that.

And, of course, the best way to make lots of money is to hone your tactical skills on the battlefield. If your soldiers never die, you don't ever need to pay for the recruitment.

And do take over the core Ptolemaioi cities, especially till Alexandreia Those are extremely rich. Being port cities and very close together, they'll grant you tons of money. Take over Hellas as well. The trade in the Aegean will make you filthy rich.

[artaxerxes]

That might be part of the reason why you're not gaining too much money. Your army's expensive! Seriously, three units of Argyraspidai plus six of those what I'm guessing to be Klerouchoi Phalangitai is fairly high upkeep. You can do almost the same with those cheap Pantodapoi Phalangitai.

And you can probably go without a lot of that cavalry as well. I usually just use my general as my horses. Sometimes maybe another one, but usually not.

And if you have elephants, DISBAND THEM. Elephants are fun units for when you're rich, not when your income's only 3000-4000 mnai a turn.

I think you guessed right :) ... Yes, I'm beginning to see what I'm doing wrong. As for the elephants - I have none. I want to be rich SO I can have some (and I promise, its the ONLY reason that I want to be rich :P ). Then i could transfer elephants to Asia Minor and invade Greece as a reborn Alexander coming back to haunt them (I know I may be expecting quite a lot from the AI ). I think I'll reconsider all my armies. My eastern ones may also be expensive, since I'm not used to Iranian cavalry, and some of it costs me a lot of money with me recruiting almost at random, even though Persian Archer/Spearmen win my every victory anyway.

[Korlon]

By the way, you can recruit elephants in Antiocheia. Well, when you get to the point when you have the cash to recruit them anyways.

[artaxerxes]

Ok :).... Exams have kicked in, so will be a while before I get a chance to try these things out, but between disbanding unnecessary border guards, placing my capitol better and making some development plan for the building of mines and stuff, I suspect that my problem will be solved. I hypothesize that border guards disbanding should bring in some 2-3000 Mnai, giving me a rather large sum = ability to build up my empire AND defend Asia Minor = more economic gains = Elephants!

thanks all

[Sygrod]

If I may be bold and interject. You have not mentioned the most lethal and cheapest units available: Slingers. Their upkeep is low, and they can really cripple a besieging army when you decide to sally. What you do is place them on the wall, except for the most experienced unit, which you send out to pelt the enemy in the back as they regroup. The ones on the wall should be lined up along their path. If you alter the army in Asia minor to include 60% slingers, 4 heavy melee units (phalanxes, etc), some Akontistai and a couple of cavalry units, you should be able to obliterate the next KH army.

Use the towers on the walls for extra free missiles and try to lure the AI to chase you around the wall. With some tricks and minimal direct contact with the enemy, you should be able to beat them with minimal losses.

Also remember that while the enemy is moving, they can't "return fire", attack enemy slingers, archers and skirmishers in that order with some sallying cavalry. The enemy slingers should be only a handful after their initial redeployment, since you concentrate archers (good Syrian ones) and slingers on them. Just keep the cavalry from making contact with their good units.

Once you have repelled a dozen or so attempts by the KH, your units should have some nice chevrons. Advance to Byzantion immediately after their most recent defeat. If they sally, use phalanxes to break enemy charges and whittle the rest down with slingers. Make sure that your cavalry can attack and finish off decimated enemy units.

Remember: Slingers are cheap and deadly. Just make sure to have some good melee units to protect them and save your cavalry for mopping up.

[pezhetairoi]

I fully agree with Sygrod on this. A good slinger army can eliminate the need for the heavy, heavy forces you are sending forward. In real life this would not have been practical, but this is EB, where the slingers are really very lethal and can appear in far larger numbers than in real life.

Against unarmoured barbarians your heavy troops will only need to do mopping up, and against Hellenic type troops, they will fall in rows in you catch them from behind or side.

[JRG]

Sorry this is slightly off topic, but same general question: What would you consider a good income? I consider 10000 mnai to be a pretty good and reasonable income. With this I can usually recruit all necessary units and have enough money left over to save or spend on buildings.

[Korlon]

Depends on how far you are in the game and the faction you're playing really.

I go pretty fast on the campaign map. I don't really consider my style blitz as I have infrastructure built and I hardly ever exterminate/enslave. I take quite a few turns to consolidate a recently conquered city as well. But by the twentieth year, I generally have at least 15000-25000 mnai income per turn unless I'm a nomadic faction, in which case my income's generally 10,000 a turn. My campaigns don't usually go further than that so I don't know. First couple years are variable. Factions near the Aegean should be getting 10,000 mnai incomes quite fast, as does the Lusotannan and Kart-hardastim.

My standing armies may be considered small though. They're usually quite cheap as well. I just use my experience in battles to compensate.

[jhhowell]

This may not help much, but I consider "a good income" to be any situation where I don't even think of how much it is, since I always have enough. At that point the concern is simply to stay below 50000 in the bank so as to avoid negative traits on my governors (bribing small rebel stacks works well).

Re: artaxerxes situation, all I'd add is to prioritize the mines in Karmana and Gabai over everything else. Those two mines are the economic heart of Persia, since each province contains two mine sites (so double the income of a normal mine). A quick strike at the province we would today call Eastern Saudi Arabia could also be worthwhile, since that will more than double the sea trade in the Persian Gulf.

And don't disband all your cavalry, just the ones you don't need. Anything weaker than Prodromoi should go, but keep Kinsmen or Hetairoi (unless you've managed to spam a lot of them). Top tier heavy cav are expensive, but well worth it. Their heavy armor will usually keep their casualties extremely low if used well. And of course keep any Parthian horse archers - both cheap and deadly.

Hmm, thinking back to my old 1.0 AS campaign, I remember what jump-started my economy was sacking the unique temple in Ecbatana. I think I read that it actually does something in 1.1, but back then it was a piece of decoration that I could tear down for 17000 mnai. That helped. You can do the same with the Cedars of Lebanon in Sidon - 10000 mnai.

[artaxerxes]

Re: artaxerxes situation, all I'd add is to prioritize the mines in Karmana and Gabai over everything else. Those two mines are the economic heart of Persia, since each province contains two mine sites (so double the income of a normal mine). A quick strike at the province we would today call Eastern Saudi Arabia could also be worthwhile, since that will more than double the sea trade in the Persian Gulf.

I'll remember that - as I said, I have so far just built mines at random, so, well, it seems I've been slowing down progress that way. Karmana and Gabai will be on top of my list. And I have been contemplating an invasion of Arabia :) (seeing as I've decided for this campaign to be my 'Asian empire', so I'll be trying as well I can to stay on the Asian continent and making a massive Successor state there, instead of exploding all over the place )

Well, I just think I have too much cavalry now that I think about it ;) Especially in garrisons where they aren't really needed. But NO WAY am I gonna demolish the great temples of my empire, I'm no barbarian :P

[Ibrahim]

if you cut the Hierosolyma garrison in Half (1 prodromoi and 3 pezhetairoi), then you can save around 2000 mnai..
hey, you said the Ptollies weren't a threat!

I can squeeze 5-10000 mnai in SPQR within 5 years, though I usually end up making only 1-2000 as a result of ruinous wars with Carthage.

[Cartaphilus]

In my actual KH campaign I'm saving 50000 mnai per turn.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

artaxerxes, You didn't say(or I missed it) what year you were in, I'm playing Seleukids V1.0 in 184 BC.

I have reasonable garrisons, 3 very strong balanced armies(each with armoured Nellies) and 5 top tier fleets(9,000 each per turn).

35% of the map is mine, and my profit is about 50,000 per turn after all expenses paid out.

It's not just getting good port cities in trading groups, or the mines, but grooming Governers in top schools, swopping retinues etc. This can easily double a top cities income, partic places like Pella, Athens etc.

PS don't forget to keep trade roads clear of rebels. Pella went up from 10,800 to 11,800 once I removed the rebels off the trade road.

[Jolt]

Are you using guard mode at all in your battles? Especially in sieges? Get some phalangitai in your usually invaded cities as well. Stick them at the town square, two or three to each entrance, and watch as you kill entire stacks with minimal losses, if at all.

In my cities that are frequently besieged, I tend not to recruit missile troops either.

Who? Where? What?

What Phalanx units are you reffering to? I can't see three Pantodopai stuffed together in a small street kicking the ass out of a single Argyraspid unit.

EDIT: Easiest way of making money- 1 Press "~" (If you're american) or "\" (If you're European) and type "add_money 20000" and press "Enter". If you want more money, simply press the "Up Arrow" and press "Enter". No more concern about maintenance! Yay!
(P.S.- That is, if you want to cheat. :P)

[Korlon]

Who? Where? What?

What Phalanx units are you reffering to? I can't see three Pantodopai stuffed together in a small street kicking the ass out of a single Argyraspid unit.

Pantodapoi Phalangitai.

You have an entrance going to your town square. Block it on two sides, or as necessary as your town grows larger. With this, you'll be attacking incoming units in two directions. Most likely, their own phalangitai will not be able to use the phalanx formation. Just block streets as necessary. If you don't have any phalangitai, use regular infantry on guard mode, though calculate for them moving backwards.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Who? Where? What?

What Phalanx units are you reffering to? I can't see three Pantodopai stuffed together in a small street kicking the ass out of a single Argyraspid unit.

Cheap pikes are ok in the east, but serious troops and heavy cav require at least some heavier pikes.

I use alot of slingers on walls, who run round the walls once the enemy are in. By running them from the side walls they take back the towers and the gate house(if it wasn't smashed in).

Keeping the enemy hemmed in streets, within range of my rapidly redeploying slingers, who fire into the enemies backs, wipes out units wholesale.

Because the huge walls can be difficult to move troops around on, I rarely build them.

[artaxerxes]

[QUOTE=Ibrahim]if you cut the Hierosolyma garrison in Half (1 prodromoi and 3 pezhetairoi), then you can save around 2000 mnai..
hey, you said the Ptollies weren't a threat![-QUOTE]
Yeah, so I said... And I mean it! They aren't! And I'm gonna do exactly that (if not even more )

Uh, don't remember the year, but think I was around 200 B. C.... thats prolly it, it sounds correct

[Cambyses]

And unless you have LOADS of money, disband all your fleets. Nothing eats your treasury more than those damned boats! I cant imagine you actually need any ships either as Seleucids, at least not before you invade Greece...