Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern

[Fenrhyl]

Which modern soldiers : Foreign legion ? French or Italian marine commandos ? US Marines ? green berets ? Swiss citizen-soldiers ? african tribal warriors ?

Which ancient soldiers : celt or german rank & file ? Soldurii ? Antruscions ? Polybian legionaries ? Hellenistic hoplitai ? sparabaras ?

Your question is ill asked.

Let's say, do you want to compare the physical prowess of the modern foreign legion shock assault troops with that of the Makedonian hypaspistai or do you want to compare the average modern soldier to the average ancient soldier ?

If it's the former, here is your answer : we can't compare. We know what the foreign legion is worth, we don't *know* what the hypaspistai are worth. We just have what the ancients wrote about them.

If it's the later... well, i never met an averge modern soldier. I don' think such a being exists. And the problem for the ancient one is even worse.

[NeoSpartan]

Physical Fitness: Ancient vs. Modern??????

Same, I am not joking.


All the arguments I've read so far are about different variables in regards to nutrition, training, supplements, education, madical care, etc....

BUT if you put all variables aside, we are still the same SOBs who fight eachother and use the environment to fit our wants/needs.

if u take a modern man and put him through say "Legionary School" (whatever training just making up a term here), as long as that individual is determined, couragous, and believes in what he is doing, he will be just as good as the other guys (and better than some).

Same story the other way around.


NOW.... if your asking about a Homo sapien vs a Homo erectus, then yeah there will be some MAJOR differences.

[Africanvs]

All that quote tells us is that grain was a staple. Which it is, even in modern diets....but generally late Republican armies were well-supplied with a varied diet.

Actually no, it tells a lot more than that. It tells you that 1) Generally the army ration consisted of little else than wheat, and 2) Whenever possible the monotonous army diet was naturally supplemented with whatever came to hand. Key word, whenever possible.

If you have read somewhere that late-republican armies were well-supplied with a varied diet more often than not, I'd like to know where you found the information. Keep in mind, there is a difference between what an army can get in garrison, and while campaigning. As far as the vegitarian thing, there is archaeological evidence to show they ate meat, but it is clear that this would be difficult in the summer months in the absence of salt. There are varied opinions about diet in general, but are you saying they had nutrition equal to ours in the 21st century? Many documented cases of scurvy among the legions would contradict.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are varied opinions about diet in general, but are you saying they had nutrition equal to ours in the 21st century? Many documented cases of scurvy among the legions would contradict.

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. You're the one conflating "they didn't subsist on wheat alone" with "they had diets equivalent to ours in the 21st century".

Goldsworthy's specific reference on the diet of the legion is R. Davies, 'The Roman Military Diet', in R. Davies, Service in the Roman Army (1989). When talking of the siege of Avaricum and the shortages of food, he notes:

The persistent myth that Roman legionaries were vegetarian is based on a misunderstanding of this and a couple of other passages. Normally they ate a balanced diet of meat, grain and vegetables. What was exceptional in this case was that they were receiving only meat, not that they were eating it at all.

Later he talks about the siegeworks at Dyracchium:

Caesar's men were short of food, for it was still winter by the natural seasons even if by the calendar it was well into spring. Livestock was plentiful, so meat was usually available and came to form a greater than usual proportion of the diet.

Here he cites Plutarch and Appian.

[Africanvs]

This has prompted me to do a bit more research into the subject and it seems you're quite correct about the balanced diet of the Roman soldier. That's why I love these forums, I'm always learning something. :)

[Cyclops]

Very interesting point. I love red Russian's point about shell shock: its a whole aspect of battlefield suffering no-one in the ancient world could've dreamed of. I imagine 'tank fright" would've been like "elephant fright" and the Romans had a bit of "bolt shock" at Syracuse when Archimedes was tormenting them, but warriors unused to firearms have been known to freak out, wet themselves and faint when shot at. I recall an interview with a New Guinean warrior who was shot at by an Aussie explorer (first white fella in the Highlands) and he fessed up with a smile.

I think we modern westerners are generally softer than our ancient kin, catching vehicle transport and massively over-eating. that New Guinea bloke could've walked me into the ground ten times over at the age of 70.

I think our soldiers are harder than most but for endurance and pain tolerance an ordinary roman citizen or subject would have 90% of us beat. however as for physical fitness the majority of us are healthy, disease, parasite and injury free and well nourished to a degree unkown in ancient times.

I guess our professional athletes and elite soldiers would be superior to the ancients given our wealth (they can dedicate more time to training, never worry about famine) and technology (medicine, physio, nutrition and performance enhancing drugs).

I used to argue with my dad about modern footballers vs the heroes of the 1930's. In Aussie Rules the average height has gone up 10 cms or more: men who played ruckman in the past (=centre, tallest man in the team) would be short as a midfielder now (=point guard, often the shortest).

He said yes but the oldies were tougher, endured their knocks better, walked everywhere, did manual labour. I think it was rosy glasses on his part. You can see from the old footage they ran slower, moved less often, contested less and got up slower (and no its not just the old newsreel running at 75% speed). So while the fellas in the 30's were fitter than me, they're not fitter than the elites. Same with the ancients I reckon.

We are a lazy lot in modern society but we have the potential and the opportunity to make ourselves fitter than most of the ancients dreamed of.

That said I reckon the citizen rowers in silver age Athens must have been a buffed and burly lot. I'd bet the crew of an average quinquereme could take on the entire WWF (or whatever that laughable fake wrestling crap is called) and smash them in a cage fight.

[Africanvs]

That said I reckon the citizen rowers in silver age Athens must have been a buffed and burly lot. I'd bet the crew of an average quinquereme could take on the entire WWF (or whatever that laughable fake wrestling crap is called) and smash them in a cage fight.

Ha! Wouldn't that be a sight. Yeah rowers must have been in great shape. I bet gladiators were too, and I don't mean those condemned to death in the arena, but the real ones. They would have been the equivalent of our professional athletes. They probably just worked out and trained to fight all day, and ate the best food available in the city they were in.

[Obelics]

could be im just pessimistic, but i would bet all my money on the ancients...

If i just go back to the generation of my grandfather, i can see how those people were thoughter than my generation. Yes we have training etc. but im sure with all those muscle mass we have (not me, but i say in general fitness people) after 1 day of march, we would have a dramatic dawngrade on the glucosius in the blood, we would feel like a pricked balloon...

to make a metaphor, id say we are like breeding chickens, while i see, 2 or 3 generation ago, they were like farmyard chickens...
there is a big difference, if you eat a breeding chicken meat, you will see his meat has no colour, it has no flavour, and it's very soft and the meat will detach from the bones with no difficulty.
if you eat a farmyard chicken, you will see that its meat is dark, it's hard to masticate, but it has a lot of flavour, and it detach very difficulty from the bones... another planet.

Id say that the few remaining farmyard chickens in humankind, are the immigrants from the poorer countrys, so im very favourable to the mixing up of the peoples, and to the mixed marriages, like the germans in the roman empire, they brought a lot of fresh new blood... they were a godsent.

ok im just so prejudicial...
And i can read even a bit of "Millenaristic" spirit in my post... wow could be im getting old...