The Marian Reforms and You.

[Shieldmaiden]

I'm bored on the night shift...

I've been thinking about the Marian Reforms in RTW 1.5, and how to balance the Romans without removing Units.

I'm talking about Praetorian and Urban Cohorts and Cavalry mostly, and wondering - how have others tried to balance them? (just removing them doesn't count )

I'd like to balance the Romans and move them a little closer to history but keep the feel of vanilla RTW 1.5 intact...

I'm open to constructive comments

Ideas floating in my head

Praetorian Cohort - Italy only? Based on the Cohores Praetoria who were all Italians IIRC. Not the Praetorian Guard.

Urban Cohort - Carthage/Lyons/Rome only? Based on the Cohores Urbanica's actual locations. Works for Greeks and Spartans.

Praetorian Cavalry - Rome only? Based on - I think - Praetorian Guard which included both Inf and Cav.

Excuse my crap Latin and history.

[Magraev]

If you want to weaken the romans a bit I think it's a good idea to limit these troops (urbans and praetorians) to being available in the city of Rome. I wouldn't allow their recruitment anywhere else. You could increase recruitment times too.

The other infantry-troops are plenty strong enough anyways, but the italian peninsula would be a tough nut to crack for anybody willing to try. I still think Rome would dominate, since they often do that even before the reforms in my games.

I also think the roman navy is too strong. But that's another story.

Good luck with your project.

[Shieldmaiden]

If you want to weaken the romans a bit I think it's a good idea to limit these troops (urbans and praetorians) to being available in the city of Rome. I wouldn't allow their recruitment anywhere else. You could increase recruitment times too.

I like longer recruitment times Plus its consistent - Praetorians/Urbans are meant to be the elite, in training and equipment. Its not like throwing a normal Cohort together...

Note: an alternative idea to limiting locations was to make uber units require a Forge (i.e - Praetorian Cavalry would require a L5 Stable and Forge) to reflect the equipment cost.

The other infantry-troops are plenty strong enough anyways, but the italian peninsula would be a tough nut to crack for anybody willing to try. I still think Rome would dominate, since they often do that even before the reforms in my games.

True. Though IMHO Rome is meant to be dominating.

I also think the roman navy is too strong. But that's another story.

Good luck with your project.

Thank you very much

[Quintus.JC]

I also tried to keep Rome:TW closer to history. Never train Urban Cohorts, Praetorians are stationed in Rome only. The bulk of my armies are made of overwhelmingly Legionaries with one unit of 1st Cohort. Legionary cavalry are too strong in the game but I used them anyway. And also try not to use Quinquireme, Rome historically never had such a good navy.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Without messing about with stats, I would place Early Legionary Cohorts everywhere, Legionary Cohorts in Italy and coastal Mediterranean cities, Praetorian Cohorts in Italy only and Urban Cohorts only in Rome. I would also extend first cohorts to Italy only, but more so the Romans can recruit them pre-civil war more than anything.

With messing about with stats you can place them almost anywhere and not have to suffer the pain. Legionary Cohorts in my game, for example, are basically the equivalent of a heavily armoured Hastatii (same attack, defence skill and stamina, but slightly higher everything else). Praetorians are slightly better, while Urbans are a little better, yet not much better, than that.

Essentially, any Roman unit will equalise or even get beaten by a similar level unit from any other faction. This appears to slow them down a little, and results in fairer battles.

[Shieldmaiden]

Without messing about with stats, I would place Early Legionary Cohorts everywhere, Legionary Cohorts in Italy and coastal Mediterranean cities, Praetorian Cohorts in Italy only and Urban Cohorts only in Rome. I would also extend first cohorts to Italy only, but more so the Romans can recruit them pre-civil war more than anything.

With messing about with stats you can place them almost anywhere and not have to suffer the pain. Legionary Cohorts in my game, for example, are basically the equivalent of a heavily armoured Hastatii (same attack, defence skill and stamina, but slightly higher everything else). Praetorians are slightly better, while Urbans are a little better, yet not much better, than that.

Essentially, any Roman unit will equalise or even get beaten by a similar level unit from any other faction. This appears to slow them down a little, and results in fairer battles.

Thank you.

I'm not going to change stats - this is more to sort out the composition of Roman armies (particularly if AI) and bring them more inline with history and other Factions uber units.

Reading up on Praetorians and Urbans, I conclude that:

Cohortes Urbanae (Urban Cohorts) policed Rome and provided a a counterpoint to Praetorian power. Requiring hidden_resource Rome is consistent with history. Longer training time too?

Cohors Praetoria (Praetorian Cohorts) were a General or VIP's tent (praetorium) guard. They consisted of Infantry and Cavalry, and were Italians from Etruria, Latium, or Umbria until much later on. hidden_resource Italy is consistent for RTW's time period. Longer training time too? Note: in RTW they're missing the Hardy attribute - intentional or not?

Presumably RTW Praetorian Cavalry is based on the equites singulares augusti, the horseguard who escorted the Emperor. hidden_resource Rome is consistent with it. Longer training time too?

[RLucid]

I also tried to keep Rome:TW closer to history. Never train Urban Cohorts, Praetorians are stationed in Rome only. The bulk of my armies are made of overwhelmingly Legionaries with one unit of 1st Cohort. Legionary cavalry are too strong in the game but I used them anyway. And also try not to use Quinquireme, Rome historically never had such a good navy.

Hmmmmm, think about that! If Rome didn't have a Dominant Navy, why did Hannibal from a recognised Naval Power of Carthage have to march an army long way through the Alps. Why couldn't he be reinforced by sea by Hasdrubal, but have him be defeated in detail in N. Italy? Why couldn't Hannibal blockade and successfully siege Rome?

Actually the Romans defeated Carthage by copying their Quinquireme's, and adding a "Corvus" to facilitate deck based Infantry fighting, rather than ramming etc.

Up to expansion into Sicily, Rome had not been a naval power, but they proved very adaptable and willing to take the best military technologies of other peoples and deploy them themselves.


Finally, I wonder if the OP, has heard of the Vanilla Play Balance Mod (PBM). It adds land bridges to aid natural AI expansion and improve routing, as well as attempt to balance all the factions to make for a less predictable game (though I actually think the Britannia is too nerfed to be interesting to play).

[Shieldmaiden]

Hmmmmm, think about that! If Rome didn't have a Dominant Navy, why did Hannibal from a recognised Naval Power of Carthage have to march an army long way through the Alps. Why couldn't he be reinforced by sea by Hasdrubal, but have him be defeated in detail in N. Italy? Why couldn't Hannibal blockade and successfully siege Rome?

Actually the Romans defeated Carthage by copying their Quinquireme's, and adding a "Corvus" to facilitate deck based Infantry fighting, rather than ramming etc.

Up to expansion into Italy, Rome had not been a naval power, but they proved very adaptable and willing to take the best military technologies of other peoples and deploy them themselves.


Finally, I wonder if the OP, has heard of the Vanilla Play Balance Mod (PBM). It adds land bridges to aid natural AI expansion and improve routing, as well as attempt to balance all the factions to make for a less predictable game (though I actually think the Britannia is too nerfed to be interesting to play).

Interesting.

And yes I've heard of - and tried - the PBM.

I've just tried to mod - and bugfix - vanilla to be a little more consistent with history without removing units, etc. Tidying up vanilla as opposed to changing it a lot.

I learnt about RTW modding just by trying to bugfix and correct - I didn't know about player1's bugfixer or PBM at the time. I'd never modded before...

Once its bugfixed and playtested I'll upload it in case somebodies interested