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Thread: Petition CA for MTW source code?

  1. #31
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Beats me... I really can't figure it out why CA won't release the source code. I'm sure they've seen this thread at least once, but still, I guess it doesn't matter.

    What about actually making a petition and sending it over to them? Next year I'm off to uni in England, so I'll gladly hand them the petition personally.
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  2. #32
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    I am not sure if this petition is going to impress CA. I mean, why vote no? It doesn't cost us anything. A more relevant question would be: if CA releases the source code, would you be able (and willing) to do something with it? M:TW source code is likely to be thousand and thousands of lines long, so even trying to understand how it works will be a major undertaking.
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Unless they were really bad programmers who created it, it isn't that hard to piece it together and understand it, it does take time depending on how much code they used, but mostly depends on how good a job they did making it.

    At least they're not Russians with Russian comments all through it.

    Though I agree, they aren't going to think they have anything to gain by releasing it. Though I do think (with reference to Caravel's post) that they would gain from it, because the possible mods would still require the original game. Releasing the source code doesn't mean you release all license to the game. It doesn't make pirating legal.
    Last edited by Garnier; 04-21-2009 at 03:50.

  4. #34
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Look around, we still have a fair share of experienced MTW moddern around. Blind King of Bohemia, Axalon, Tyberius... Even me, if the source code would be released or at least have some option of getting it, I will gladly take up my best arms and join the modding fight.

    Make a petition? Enough support? Enough votes?
    How about we all make an e-mail and send it to CA?
    Last edited by edyzmedieval; 04-29-2009 at 11:21.
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  5. #35
    Evil Overlord Member Kaidonni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    It's better than just sitting around talking about it, that. If I could just get rid of the battle mouse-over bug, I'd be happy. They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually). I knew there could be issues back in 2006 when I got Medieval Gold, but I was lucky. Others won't know, and won't be so lucky, even if it's as simple as only needing the button fix or tweaking a few graphics card settings. They'll be frustrated and want to return the game, and feel cheated by CA or Nvidia, or both. Not really that good for reputation. As long as a game is sold, there should be some semblance of support, not a pretence that all is fine. It is also inefficient to continue selling the game, expending resources on the production of the software and other items and shipping them to stores, if the most probable result is that people can't play it.

    It is not as if anyone is looking to pirate the game by having the source code. Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it. Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code. And even if someone did distribute it further and pirated it...all games have been pirated, and again it does not mean we are all like that. Most people will not go down that route, most are willing to pay for the game. Something about not stealing. CA and Sega would do well not to be too pessimistic about Human nature, it is insulting.

    I believe the issue is even being made more complex than need be. Non-disclosure agreements, paying to be able to have access to altering the code, maybe even a system that stops it (or does a very good job at trying to stop it) from being distributed beyond the original recipients. Maybe something along the lines of CD-keys, and they can only be registered once. This could make everyone happy. And it could net CA and Sega more money and a better reputation. Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?

    It takes a lot of effort to alter the source code for a game, anyway. And an artistic eye, nonetheless. Your generic pirates aren't going to get anything from pirating the source code. There probably wouldn't even be any effort put into distributing it. We're not talking about downloading something to play here (although I am NOT endorsing such an action, might I add), we're talking about modding. Not only that, but programming and coding. Most people do not have the patience or the time to do any of that. If they have the skills, then they are less likely to be the scum that doesn't pay for games because they probably want to do something with programming as a career. People who mod and who code do not steal, they are not the common thieves CA and Sega might be taking them for. These are people who would easily sympathise, not just empathise, with the pain endured through seeing your artistic/commercial property stolen. They don't even want people to steal any of their work. And I don't think people like being hypocrits, so...

    It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.

    PS: Besides, petitions won't be enough by themselves - individuals are smart, but get people into large masses and see their true nature . What we need is to argue our points and ensure that we are in the right. Debates are all about that - argue your points, take what you can from your opponent, and still find a way to be right somehow and win. No point in trying to lose.
    I believe in a society without rules, laws and regulations. A society where there are only ideas - strict ideas that must be followed to by the letter - and any failure to comply is punishable by death. This would be no dictatorship or police state, no one would be living in terror. It would merely be a 'reassessment of one's preferences,' people living in 'not-so-optimistic security.' So, welcome, those who are 'longing to be blindly obedient and loyal, unbeknownst to them.'

  6. #36
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Very good point Kaidonni.

    I was recently playing a bit of Medieval: Total War, to remind myself of the glory days of the Total War series, and I still throughly enjoyed the medieval and historic feel of the game, something which cannot be reproduced at all in M2TW. And at the same time I thought it's a real shame we can't do anything to fix the diplomacy and other bugs which clear hinder the game progress.

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  7. #37

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidonni View Post
    They are still selling the game, and it is their responsibility to inform people of the issues with it on more modern PCs (and a majority of gamers are not going to come to places like here at the Org or other Total War sites, they've only bought the game to play it casually).
    I'm not sure as to the legality of that, though you probably have a point. You never see "maximum system requirements" on games, though there are a lot of old games still sold that either won't run well or won't run at all on newer hardware/software. From an ethical standpoint, CA were still selling STW/MTW as parts of the eras pack, so the problems should have been resolved by way of a patch prior to it's release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidonni View Post
    Mentioned before is the fact that anything done with the source code would still require that people have the original game. That means people will still be paying for the game. Sure, there will be people who pirate the game, nothing can stop that. But short of not producing and selling any games, only so much can be done to combat that. Punishing paying customers and those of us who are honest and only have good intentions is not the way to combat it.
    Exactly, but this is the world of proprietary software. Proprietary software assumes us all to be no better than thieves. We must then prove our innocence by passing the DRM. If we pass the DRM we're no longer a thief, even if we're someone that bypassed it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidonni View Post
    Nothing malicious will be done with the source code, and it only needs to be given to certain trusted people. CA and Sega both know that people can be trusted in this manner, too - look at Jack Lusted. He tried his darned best to fix Rome and Medieval 2, and eventually got hired by CA because of his contribution. They believed in him enough to allow him to become more intimately involved with the development of their games. They trusted him, that he was right about the flaws in the games. It would not be so different with providing someone with the source code. We swing it in our favour by suggesting we pay to have it - maybe to 'hire' it, even, rather than own it. Non-disclosure agreements are all that is required, only certain modders being allowed to have access to the code.
    You're on the wrong track here. If the source code is released, it should be released in it's entirety and available for download. The source code would be the code to the Medieval/Shogun win32 .exe files and any accompanying .dll files. CA need not release any of the game content. To clarify "game content" this is what modders modify: Graphics, scripts, sounds etc (about 95% of what comes on the CD is the game content).

    Modders != programmers. Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding. Once released, the source code will find it's way to the right people. There is no need for teams of lawyers or non disclosure agreements between individuals/companies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidonni View Post
    Medieval Total War is a timeless game. It is at a time when the Total War games were really only just starting. It is as classical as Age of Empires and Age of Empires 2, or Doom and Doom 2. Same goes for Shogun. Do they really want to let this game die?
    Quite frankly: Yes they do - and I am surprised at some of the naivety here. This is not about the fans, Total War or CA, but the multi-billion dollar profits of SEGA. STW/MTW is an old game engine. It has been abandoned and it is obvious that CA want to invest no time or effort in it. Hopefully you will get sick of trying to get MTW to work and go off and buy CA's newer games instead.

    Oh and I may be somewhat off the mark here, but it seems to me that CA representatives never post in the forums for the older games. This thread was started over a year ago and still not one CA reply to date. This is probably policy. In short gentlemen you and your little predicament don't exist in the eyes of CA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidonni View Post
    It is definitely time for us to do something. Either we make a concerted effort to make a future for MTW, or we just decide to play it until we no longer can and let it fade into the darkness of the past.
    I'm afraid it's the latter option. You haven't a hope in hell of making this company release source code to anyone unless it benefits them. And they're not unusual in that. There are plenty of other companies hanging on to the source code of 10 - 20 year old titles.

    They have released source code to a company porting RTW to the Mac - so where there's money to be made code can and will be released. STW/MTW source code will not be released because there's simply no profit in it.

    Last edited by caravel; 05-26-2009 at 14:13.

  8. #38
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    I'm afraid it's the latter option. You haven't a hope in hell of making this company release source code to anyone unless it benefits them. And they're not unusual in that. There are plenty of other companies hanging on to the source code of 10 - 20 year old titles.

    They have released source code to a company porting RTW to the Mac - so where there's money to be made code can and will be released. STW/MTW source code will not be released because there's simply no profit in it.

    My point being.

    Either somebody BUYS it off them for a big amount of money or we all make a team effort and we actually start a petition for the MTW source code to be released to specially designed modders.
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  9. #39

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    My point being.

    Either somebody BUYS it off them for a big amount of money or we all make a team effort and we actually start a petition for the MTW source code to be released to specially designed modders.
    1) It would take more investment that any individual or company would be prepared to stump up. You're talking about a major investment in time, money, lawyers and people and companies, that have this at their disposal already - like the one are porting RTW to the Mac - wouldn't be interested. The potential consumer base is too small.

    2) Historically CA ignore petitions - they even ignored this thread.

    As I said: In the eyes of CA this is not an issue, it's not even happening.

    Last edited by caravel; 05-26-2009 at 14:32.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Medieval/Shogun was coded in C/C++ using MSVC++ if I recall correctly. Unless any of our modders here are highly experienced with this, then they haven't much hope of doing anything with the source code. Editing a few .txt files is a whole different ballgame to coding.
    I use C++ and have the source to another game most of which I can readily understand. Though there is a TON of code there, it's all broken down into parts, and you don't need to understand all of it to do anything with it. It's not like C++ is encrypted, unless of course the CA programmers were evil.

    Still, of course, our chance of getting it any time in the forseeable future is ~0%.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    The parts of the code that allow you to change that which directly relates to the gameplay is more simplistic, i.e. hard coded events etc. It's when it gets to the game engine itself and DirectX function calls that it gets quite a bit more advanced. One of the first steps to improving the game IMHO would be porting it to OpenGL - thus getting rid of DirectX and any further driver/DirectX version/OS version issues that would arise from it (remember that OpenGL has an inbuilt software render so if all else fails you could do that - I often wonder what the old software render in shogun was based on and what happened to it in MTW?). Also with a Win32/OSX/Linux multiplatform approach there will be enough people working on it and interested, to make the best possible job of it.

    But anyway, they won't release the code so yes this is all hypothetical at best.

    Anyway - what am I doing here? Another time perhaps.

    Last edited by caravel; 05-26-2009 at 16:40.

  12. #42
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    1) It would take more investment that any individual or company would be prepared to stump up. You're talking about a major investment in time, money, lawyers and people and companies, that have this at their disposal already - like the one are porting RTW to the Mac - wouldn't be interested. The potential consumer base is too small.

    2) Historically CA ignore petitions - they even ignored this thread.

    As I said: In the eyes of CA this is not an issue, it's not even happening.


    1) Major investment as in? You just need someone to buy it, one lawyer to sort the papers, a handful of dedicated guys to rework and then the lawyer again to strike a deal with CA. Simple as that.

    2) That's very true. But I believe in the "There's a beginning for everything..."
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Hi people,

    While I am totally sympathetic to your goal here Edyz, I believe that both Caravel and Garnier are right. And that pretty much sets "the seal of doom" for me on this, if that makes any sense here? If you want to peruse this I won’t stop you of course, but I won’t help much either since I just like the others don’t see how this will happen any time soon (if ever), sad but true….

    Anyway, dont listen to boring 'ol gloomy me - keep on going if you believe in it strongly enough! It probably would have generated more money out of MTW, but CA obviously does not see things that way (yet, let’s hope that this will change, it did happen with the Myth 2-game so it’s not completely impossible)…

    - Cheers

  14. #44

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    *Grand visions of mod allowing the actual campaign map to be played on multiplayer* O.K. back to reality :)

  15. #45

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..

  16. #46
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by oz_wwjd View Post
    I would personally contribute a sizable sum towards working out the annoying graphics cards issues with newer cards,as this has destroyed what was one of the best games for me..
    This goes to show the atachment Total War veterans have towards this game...
    Creative Assembly, please take notice.
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  17. #47
    Member Member dragula42's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    In Information Systems 300 our professor told us that sometimes customer service is so bad sometimes that people build anti-sites. The example she gave was www.ihatedell.com

    Perhaps we could do something similar for TCA? since asking them nicely isn't doing anything?
    just a thought I had, perhaps it would motivate them more to fix the problems...

  18. #48

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..

  19. #49

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..

  20. #50

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by oz_wwjd View Post
    Well if someone wants to contact CA,and find out if they are willing to sell,or at least let us look at the source code,as I can't see Nvidia fixing this anytime soon. With so many dedicated modders here,I'm 99% sure we could fix the problem,IF we can get a look at the code and find out what's causing the problems in the first place..
    Modders are not programmers. In order to fix the problems in MTW you would need to give full source code to an experienced C/C++ coder.
    Quote Originally Posted by oz_wwjd View Post
    What would be the best way to contact CA and see what they are willing to do for us,about the MTW souce code? Not exactly sure of the best way to get in contact with them,except for the tech support e-mail address..
    Have a look at CA's site but don't expect any replies. At best you will get a generic, politically worded answer. In a nutshell you are wasting your time and this thread is a complete waste of time. Sorry to be negative, but this thread will still be here in a few years and nothing will have changed.

  21. #51
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    If someone actually goes to the CA offices with a letter/petition in hand signed by a lot of people, then I'm sure they will have at least a thought over it.
    Plus, they can only gain after it.
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  22. #52

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    I hate to rain on your parade, but it ain't gonna happen.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

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  23. #53

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Hello,

    It is not simple for the games developers to release the source code for a game. The CA team of today are not the CA team of 2000 - 2002. Also when it comes to source code, it is not just the developer that can decide about this, the publisher(s) is also a big factor. The "intellectual property" is also a factor, the source code may be jointly owned. In short it's bound to be very complex.

    I have read about cases like this before, where the rights to a certain game were owned not by the developers but by a previous publisher which prevented the game source ever being released. The publisher in question refused to cooperate so nothing came of it.

    There is also the fact that CA have shown no willingness to provide any assistance to those still trying to play STW/MTW. There have been no posts in this thread from CA representatives after almost 2 years.

    CA have also stated on numerous occasions in the past that they discount "online petitions" - so I doubt written petitions would carry much weight either. Besides it would be rather difficult to get together a written petition of any real value, considering this is all internet based and people like to protect their anonymity. There is also the small matter of this thread only consisting of 2 pages and a handful of people. Do you believe a company like CA will take notice of this small minority?

    I am quite certain that this is not going to happen - for what it's worth I support what you are trying to do and agree with it in principle. But looking at this realistically, CA are not going to provide the source code for this game.

    Regards

    Yohei

  24. #54

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Good post Yohei.

    In any case MTW is history for CA - there is insider info that they won't touch the game code to fix problems and i very much doubt that they have any benefit or intention to release the code for free or otherwise. The old TWs will die off and that's it. Buy Nappy :)
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  25. #55
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    The only hope is that CA/Activision/SEGA/Whomever else give someone like Good Old Games the rights to fix the software/hardware issues that affect newer systems. But, CA and it's publishing companies over the years have become more and more detached from the community and also the needs of the consumer (ETW/NTW lack of mod tools a key example). Personally (and this is based on my marketing knowledge) I feel that the series will not continue much longer and as a going concern Creative Assembly will not exist much longer either. There is a significant disconnect between what they are producing and the needs and wants of the PC gaming consumer.
    Last edited by naut; 03-03-2010 at 14:32.
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  26. #56

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    And yet they sell more than ever before. I read a post a ttwcentre that even claimed that the pre-orders for NTW made more sales than RTW to date.

    There is no doubt that CA moved away from its core community. The guys in twc that have "started playing since Shogun" may be a dime a dozen, but in reality one can tell that the vast majority of them joined after RTW/M2. Despite the complaining waves and even the poor user reception for ETW,TW as a commercial venture is alive and well, and as far as this is so i cant see them quiting or SEGA letting them quit.

    If and when CA makes a RTW2 or anything else there are enough fanboys and general interest from the pc gaming market to keep them going for another 10 years with or without mod tools. The multiplayer camp may also well be a huge success. I have to admit that it is cleverly implemented (only two players and one is playing against the other in any battle the other fights be it against the player or the AI factions), and would have loved to play such in the older games. If this is a success, complains about the AI, and indeed a need for a very advanced AI may well be a thing of the past.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  27. #57

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    The multiplayer camp may also well be a huge success. I have to admit that it is cleverly implemented (only two players and one is playing against the other in any battle the other fights be it against the player or the AI factions), and would have loved to play such in the older games. If this is a success, complains about the AI, and indeed a need for a very advanced AI may well be a thing of the past.
    MP is only a small, though important, niche and will probably remain that way. The issue is still campaign map AI and diplomacy which have been found wanting. Yes the average player, or CA's "casual gamer" as they're referred to nowadays, that is to say their target consumer, may overlook crappy fastclicking battles but not shortcomings/bugs on the campaign map level.

  28. #58

    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Well that's exactly the point - that competitive mp play in battles only had a small fraction of the market, but campaign mp may well be a success in that, and in this case, diplomacy and AI won't be that much of a problem. A campaign mp game will be satisfying because the battles will be and because in the campaign the other player will also be trying to smack you.

    To be honest its not that newer total wars lack tactical and strategic dimensions, but that these are terribly underworked and lack optimisation. The reasons for this are well known/suspected: there is an emphasis in graphics and presentation, an emphasis in additional features and games within the game t make the game more broad in its appeal and more pleasing etc However the core game has not been lost, its been simply carried over and used to fill commercial expectations rather than improving it. This is the major sin of ca and tw for me, that they wanted to succeed more than they wanted to succeed in their own terms. However, they had every right, from the start to do so; its their game.

    To the point: i dont think that tw will dissapearany time soon.

    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  29. #59
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    I looked over this thread again and noticed the overwhelming majority at the poll - 38 for, 3 against.
    This shows how much support MTW has.

    I fired up MTW a couple of days ago, and all of those good memories, the "feeling" you had when you started up MTW came back to me. A glorious moment.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  30. #60
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petition CA for MTW source code?

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    To be honest its not that newer total wars lack tactical and strategic dimensions, but that these are terribly underworked and lack optimisation. The reasons for this are well known/suspected: there is an emphasis in graphics and presentation
    The market that was catered to starting with the 2nd generation TW games (Rome, MTW2) demand graphical updates at such a pace that further
    improvements to the basic game mechanics and features are unlikely to occur. This is the biggest problem concerning the continuation of the
    franchise. What the consumers want and will get are more polygons, higher resolution textures, and better particle effects that steal so many working
    hours and resources to produce that increasing, say, the number of men on the battlefield (a real and tangible gameplay dynamic) becomes
    extremely difficult. By fixating on updates to the textures of the troops, increased computing power will only be wasted to please the
    graphics craving masses rather than increasing the number of men that can smoothly be displayed. Or think of the balance issues
    that could be better sorted out with more time alloted.

    And on the AI side of things, it will only get worse which we STW/MTW players are well aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    an emphasis in additional features and games within the game t make the game more broad in its appeal and more pleasing etc However the core game has not been lost, its been simply carried over and used to fill commercial expectations rather than improving it. This is the major sin of ca and tw for me, that they wanted to succeed more than they wanted to succeed in their own terms. However, they had every right, from the start to do so; its their game.
    The direction taken by CA during the last 7-8 years do indicate that an expansion in features rather than meaningful and polished
    gameplay mechanics is the norm. So yes, you are unfortunately right. We oldtimers are commercially insignificant due to not
    providing a revenue stream to SEGA anymore. A petition changes nothing, and as said by others, complaining about lack
    of support for older titles is a waste of time...

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    I fired up MTW a couple of days ago, and all of those good memories, the "feeling" you had when you started up MTW came back to me. A glorious moment.
    Indeed

    I reckon that the Main Hall needs a new story for the "Pics and History" thread. Maybe I'll step up....

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