The Casse In History

[Elmetiacos]

The only concrete record of the Cassi is a name on list. The list is of five British peoples who went to over to Caesar's side following the Romans inflicting a heavy defeat on Cassivellaunus. They sent ambassadors who mapped out Cassivellaunus' capital for the Romans. (DBG Book 5) Can we learn or theorise anything else about them?

Some people have suggested that Cassi is an old name for the Catuvellauni. The reason for this is chiefly the name of Cassivellaunus himself. The Catuvellauni are not actually mentioned by Caesar - who in fact never tells us what Cassivellaunus' tribe is, but he does say that his territory is on the North side of the Thames, which is the same as that of the Catuvellauni. Most historians think he was Catuvellaunian, therefore. His name is read as two elements, kassi- wellauno- taken to mean "Champion of the Cassi". I haven't read all the arguments in favour of this, but I can see problems with it. First of all, it would mean that the Cassi, in going over to Caesar's side, were stabbing their own chief in the back and not only that, but plotting with him how best to sack their own capital. It could be, of course, that there had been a sort of Cassi "palace coup" while Cassivellaunus was away fighting and a new clan had the kingship and that Cassivellaunus' seat of power was not theirs... but it's a big "if" and Caesar doesn't mention anything of the kind. Second, I've been through the list on L'Arbre Celtique and personal names with a tribe's name are unknown among Britons and Gauls (with one possible exception, depending on how you read a certain Sequanian coin legend) so "Champion of the Cassi" would be a very weird name. Third is a linguistic argument. This is purely my theory, but I feel quite confident about it (for now).

If we have a Latin plural Cassi, it's pretty much a certainty that the original word would be a Celtic o-stem. The singluar would be *Cassos from a stem *kaso-. The Romans Latinised Celtic (and also Greek) -os endings to -us endings and gave them an -i plural. In British and Gaulish compounds, the first element is normally the stem, without any declension, so we would expect "Champion of the Cassi" to be *Cassovellaunos > Latin *Cassovellaunus and not Cassivellaunus. Incidentally, this means that the British Cassi have nothing to do with the various Gaulish tribes with names ending -casses; their names are from an i-stem, kasi- like that of Cassivellaunus. The stem *kasi- survives in Welsh and Irish and carries the meanings "Adversary" or "Bitter dispute". Cassivellaunus is therefore "The Opposing Champion" or perhaps "He who has Triumphed Over Opposition". What does Cassi mean? There's a possible *kaso- stem in Irish (see EDIL) which has to do with curls, twists, intricacy and difficulty. The Cassi could perhaps be "The Curly-Haired People", "The People on the River Bend" or "The Complex People".

What does it mean if the Cassi aren't the Catuvellauni? Where did they live? The four other tribes are listed as Cenimagni, Segontiaci, Ancalites and Bibroci. Are they neighbours of the Cassi? A popular theory is that "Cenimagni" is really Latin Iceni Magni (the Great Iceni) or Celtic Eceni Magli (the Royal Iceni) and the Cenimagni are therefore the Iceni of East Anglia. Unfortunately, Segontium is the Roman name for Caernarvon on the West Coast of Wales, so if it's anything to do with the Segontiaci, they're a long way away from the Cenimagni, interest in the conflict must have been very widespread and the Cassi therefore could have lived anywhere... except, of course, that if Cassivellaunus was Catuvellaunian, we know that his descendant, Caratacus, fled to Wales which suggests that there might have been an alliance or dynastic links with tribes in Wales, explaining the interest from an apparently remote region. The Cassi might then be expected to be somewhere nearby. If we follow Caesar, we can rule out Kent; it apparently was a confederacy of four rulers, all of whom sided with Cassivellaunus. That leaves the Southern, Western or Northern borders of Catuvellauni territory - the lands of the Atrebates, Dobunni and Corieltauvi/Coritani during the Roman occupation. Where there is a big bend in the Thames, on the South bank, is an Iron Age hillfort near Cassington Mill in Oxfordshire. Cassington is from an Old English word for watercress - caerse - not apparently from the Cassi, but all the same...! Any attempt at a precise location is a guess. Beausale Camp in Warwickshire is another hillfort in a river bend, on the Northwest border of Catuvellaunian territory.

Returning to the Segontiaci, The suffix -iacos is attested in Gaulish as a patronymic (not AFAIK in Brythonic) so the Segontiaci might not be the people from Segontium, but the family of Segontos or Segontios. That would make them more of a sept or clan than a tribe. The five tribes might not be tribes at all, only septs within the Catuvellauni who had decided that since Caesar couldn't be beaten, they would kick out Cassivellaunus and elect a new king. Caesar doesn't say anything on the matter, however. In this case the Cassi could be the Catuvellauni in the sense that they are possible holders of the Catuvellaunian kingship. Or perhaps the Cassi were a sept of the Trinovantes and when Caesar asked for hostages from Mandubracius, he sent some from each of the five septs who made up his tribe, including the Cassi. In this case they could be candidates for the Trinovantian kingship.

Please comment...

[chairman]

What evidence do we have for tribes in Britain around 272 BC? According to what you say, maybe the Cassi were a part of tribes in the area. Would it work to change out the "Casse" for, say, the Catuvellauni? Or do we not have very much information on them either?

Chairman

[Elmetiacos]

Precious little. We can look at archaeological evidence and make reasonable assumptions based on uninterrupted use of large hillforts and oppida. It's a fair bet that the Brigantes were around, for instance because some of the important sites occupied when the Romans arrived had been around a long time, such as Roulston Scar. One Catuvellauni site this old is Hunsbury Hill, but there seems to have been a lot of change in Southern England which might be linked to Belgic conquests which are supposed to have happened just before Caesar. I'm only just starting to look into all this.

[blitzkrieg80]

If we have a Latin plural Cassi, it's pretty much a certainty that the original word would be a Celtic o-stem. The singluar would be *Cassos from a stem *kaso-. The Romans Latinised Celtic (and also Greek) -os endings to -us endings and gave them an -i plural.

How can you be certain of this? Has any scholar supported such an assertion? Is this an educated guess based on examples only? How would you apply this to the plentitude of -i endings on Germanic tribes and all others? the same o-class IE nominative plural? Not a single tribe with the typical Latin -i ending has any other root than o-class?

[blitzkrieg80]

since the ethnicity trait in EB for the Casse says straightfowardly 'Handsome Ones' - the origin of that translation probably comes from *kastos for 'curly hair' or 'long hair' [as a woman]' seen in much use in the Hasdingi 'longhairs' (royal family of the Vandals) and the legendary Hadding, besides other IE, usage as a word of prestige among those with different standards to the 'Roman haircut' (in contrast to Meroving Longhairs and Gothic Capillati) and likely due to the high amount of care involved for long hair which isn't possible for lower classes who have hard labour to fill their time. Your etymology for 'battle' is correct but not concerning this unless you accounted for some kind of gemination (tt) as in Chatti > Hesse (tt>ss). In this instance its st>ss (being very common in IE- in general) as seen in Old Irish cass

concerning various British Isle Celtic dialects, I have found numerous evidence of -e noun endings... possibly agent noun derivatives?

if *kast- comes from *kes 'to comb', then Casse would very much be likely to be an agent noun

'abstract and collective meaning nouns expressed' in Old Irish suffix -e
OIr daire 'oakwood, grove', orbbae 'heritage'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...riol-10-X.html

Proto-British -eio
MW dirwy / OIr díre 'penalty, honor-price'

MW chwarae > chware 'play', MW river Tafwy > MoW Tawe
MoB doue < *deiwos
http://books.google.com/books?id=f_R...l=en#PPA216,M1 (also see page 289)

"B. Feminine and Abstract (Collectives),

a. A general suffix *-(e)h2 is found in Feminine, as in s&#233;nā-, old (*senah2, cf. Gk. h&#233;nē, Skr. śanā-, Lith. sen&#224;), swekrū́s, husband’s mother (*swekr&#250;h2-, cf. O.Sla. svekrŭ, Lat. socrus, O.H.G. swigar), in Abstract Collectives, as in Gk. tom, cut, or neur, rope made from sinew (IE n&#233;urom), etc., and in the Nom.-Acc. Neuter singular of the collective that functions as Nom.-Acc. Plural (cf. Skr. yug, Gk. zyg&#225;, Lat. iuga, Goth. juka, “jokes”, Hitt. -a, Pal. -a/-ā, etc.).
[...]
"C. [...] c. Adjectival suffixes -jo- and -ijo- have a relational sense, as in cow-j&#243;s, “of a cow/ox”, from cow-, cow, ox, as in Av. gaoya-, Skr. gavy&#225; or g&#225;vya, Gk. hekat&#243;m-boios, “that costs a hundred cows”, Arm. kogi (<cow-ijo-), “derived from the cow”, O.Ir. ambu&#230; (<ṇ-cow-ijo-, as in Skr. &#225;gos, Gk. abo&#250;teō), “man without cows”, or e.g. patri&#243;s, paternal, pedi&#243;s, “of the foot”, etc. As a nominal suffix, cf. Lat. ingenium, officium, O.Ir. cride, setig, Skr. vairya, saujanya, Sla. stoletie, dolia, etc.
b. It is also very well attested a Feminine and Abstract Collective -ī, PIE *-ih2, with variant -i, PIE *-jah2/-jeh2, cf. Skr. dev (Gen. dḗvyās), “goddess”, vṛkīs (Gen. vṛk&#237;as), “she-wolf”, etc."

this is all an amateur level of course, simple internet searching since i have no resources otherwise, yet it brings up some possibilities beyond a simple o-class plural suffix. yet, you could be right, suredly, but it's not like whoever created the name Casse didn't know about -i when Latin gives the stereotypical gloss and when the other Celtic factions have an -i. internally the Casse members refer to Cassi (probably similar to when Sweboz members refer to Suebi) so they definitely weren't unaware on that level. so the question that seems forever puzzling is, what is the -e suppose to be representing, purposefully different from Gallic faction names?


OT - what is the basis for the -ae suffix in Belgae anyways? it seems vaguely related and the Casse description does mention them.

btw, the provincial suffix *-ouw in EB is probably from IE for "river/water" - maybe you already knew this, but I remember you asked the question- and I am suprised I missed it myself. that's what i get for forsaking my hippocampus

[Elmetiacos]

since the ethnicity trait in EB for the Casse says straightfowardly 'Handsome Ones' - the origin of that translation probably comes from *kastos for 'curly hair' or 'long hair' [as a woman]' seen in much use in the Hasdingi 'longhairs' (royal family of the Vandals) and the legendary Hadding, besides other IE, usage as a word of prestige among those with different standards to the 'Roman haircut' (in contrast to Meroving Longhairs and Gothic Capillati) and likely due to the high amount of care involved for long hair which isn't possible for lower classes who have hard labour to fill their time. Your etymology for 'battle' is correct but not concerning this unless you accounted for some kind of gemination (tt) as in Chatti > Hesse (tt>ss). In this instance its st>ss (being very common in IE- in general) as seen in Old Irish cass

I didn't say "battle" as such. "Handsome Ones" is Daithi Ó hÓgain again. I confess to being baffled as to why he extended the meaning to 'handsome' but he must have his reasons. None of the Irish I can find and none of the Welsh, is about good looks and all of it is about non-straightness:
Old/Middle Irish
Caise - intricacy, crookedness; stream, rivulet
Cas - of curly hair / skilled, intelligent / knot
Casad - act of turning or twisting; a twist, turn or wrinkle
Casán - (meandering) footpath
Casnaide - wood shavings
Welsh
Cast - trick Castiau hud - juggling

The other kasi- root
Welsh
Cas - hatred, hateful
Casau - to hate
Caseion - enemies
Irish
Caise - legal claim/case (but could be a borrowing of Latin casus, of course)

concerning various British Isle Celtic dialects, I have found numerous evidence of -e noun endings... possibly agent noun derivatives?

if *kast- comes from *kes 'to comb', then Casse would very much be likely to be an agent noun

'abstract and collective meaning nouns expressed' in Old Irish suffix -e
OIr daire 'oakwood, grove', orbbae 'heritage'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...riol-10-X.html

Proto-British -eio
MW dirwy / OIr díre 'penalty, honor-price'

MW chwarae > chware 'play', MW river Tafwy > MoW Tawe
MoB doue < *deiwos
http://books.google.com/books?id=f_R...l=en#PPA216,M1 (also see page 289)

All these particular -e endings are too late for our period. There's coincidentally been debate on the Continental Celtic group about whether the name 'Noreia' is Celtic, with one side saying -eia above means it is, and the other saying nor- means it isn't.

"B. Feminine and Abstract (Collectives),

a. A general suffix *-(e)h2 is found in Feminine, as in sénā-, old (*senah2, cf. Gk. hénē, Skr. śanā-, Lith. senà), swekrū́s, husband’s mother (*swekrúh2-, cf. O.Sla. svekrŭ, Lat. socrus, O.H.G. swigar), in Abstract Collectives, as in Gk. tom, cut, or neur, rope made from sinew (IE néurom), etc., and in the Nom.-Acc. Neuter singular of the collective that functions as Nom.-Acc. Plural (cf. Skr. yug, Gk. zygá, Lat. iuga, Goth. juka, “jokes”, Hitt. -a, Pal. -a/-ā, etc.).
[...]

isn't that (e) a buffer before the laryngeal? /eh2/ seems to become a long A in proto-Celtic.

"C. [...] c. Adjectival suffixes -jo- and -ijo- have a relational sense, as in cow-jós, “of a cow/ox”, from cow-, cow, ox, as in Av. gaoya-, Skr. gavyá or gávya, Gk. hekatóm-boios, “that costs a hundred cows”, Arm. kogi (<cow-ijo-), “derived from the cow”, O.Ir. ambuæ (<ṇ-cow-ijo-, as in Skr. ágos, Gk. aboúteō), “man without cows”, or e.g. patriós, paternal, pediós, “of the foot”, etc. As a nominal suffix, cf. Lat. ingenium, officium, O.Ir. cride, setig, Skr. vairya, saujanya, Sla. stoletie, dolia, etc.
b. It is also very well attested a Feminine and Abstract Collective -ī, PIE *-ih2, with variant -i, PIE *-jah2/-jeh2, cf. Skr. dev (Gen. dḗvyās), “goddess”, vṛkīs (Gen. vṛkías), “she-wolf”, etc."

this is all an amateur level of course, simple internet searching since i have no resources otherwise, yet it brings up some possibilities beyond a simple o-class plural suffix. yet, you could be right, suredly, but it's not like whoever created the name Casse didn't know about -i when Latin gives the stereotypical gloss and when the other Celtic factions have an -i. internally the Casse members refer to Cassi (probably similar to when Sweboz members refer to Suebi) so they definitely weren't unaware on that level. so the question that seems forever puzzling is, what is the -e suppose to be representing, purposefully different from Gallic faction names?


OT - what is the basis for the -ae suffix in Belgae anyways? it seems vaguely related and the Casse description does mention them.

btw, the provincial suffix *-ouw in EB is probably from IE for "river/water" - maybe you already knew this, but I remember you asked the question- and I am suprised I missed it myself. that's what i get for forsaking my hippocampus

-ijo- crops up as a relative clause verb marker in Gaulish as io, but I don't know if it's the same as the PIE one. -ouw as PIE river is a weird choice for provincial names in 272BC. From my meagre knowledge of Latin, isn't -ae a first declension (the "O, table" one) giving singular Belga, Celtic *Belgâ or *Belgâs?

[Bellum]

Been following this for a few days, and I can't wait to see where it ends up.

[Elmetiacos]

Why is it so hard to find material on the tribes of Southern England? I've got plenty of baseless conjecture on the Brigantes, including a possible history from 500 BC to the Roman Conquest, but the Catuvellauni, Cassi et al. are proving elusive...

[Elmetiacos]

How can you be certain of this? Has any scholar supported such an assertion? Is this an educated guess based on examples only? How would you apply this to the plentitude of -i endings on Germanic tribes and all others? the same o-class IE nominative plural? Not a single tribe with the typical Latin -i ending has any other root than o-class?

Probably. Certainly not an i-stem, because that gives a plural -es which is attested in Gaulish and Latin. The Romans wouldn't bother to change a plural termination which was already grammatically correct for their own language. Don't know why so many -i and -ii Germans compared to relatively few Britons with the same ending. From a statistician's point of view, they are both rather small samples.