The Casse In History

[Elmetiacos]

The only concrete record of the Cassi is a name on list. The list is of five British peoples who went to over to Caesar's side following the Romans inflicting a heavy defeat on Cassivellaunus. They sent ambassadors who mapped out Cassivellaunus' capital for the Romans. (DBG Book 5) Can we learn or theorise anything else about them?

Some people have suggested that Cassi is an old name for the Catuvellauni. The reason for this is chiefly the name of Cassivellaunus himself. The Catuvellauni are not actually mentioned by Caesar - who in fact never tells us what Cassivellaunus' tribe is, but he does say that his territory is on the North side of the Thames, which is the same as that of the Catuvellauni. Most historians think he was Catuvellaunian, therefore. His name is read as two elements, kassi- wellauno- taken to mean "Champion of the Cassi". I haven't read all the arguments in favour of this, but I can see problems with it. First of all, it would mean that the Cassi, in going over to Caesar's side, were stabbing their own chief in the back and not only that, but plotting with him how best to sack their own capital. It could be, of course, that there had been a sort of Cassi "palace coup" while Cassivellaunus was away fighting and a new clan had the kingship and that Cassivellaunus' seat of power was not theirs... but it's a big "if" and Caesar doesn't mention anything of the kind. Second, I've been through the list on L'Arbre Celtique and personal names with a tribe's name are unknown among Britons and Gauls (with one possible exception, depending on how you read a certain Sequanian coin legend) so "Champion of the Cassi" would be a very weird name. Third is a linguistic argument. This is purely my theory, but I feel quite confident about it (for now).

If we have a Latin plural Cassi, it's pretty much a certainty that the original word would be a Celtic o-stem. The singluar would be *Cassos from a stem *kaso-. The Romans Latinised Celtic (and also Greek) -os endings to -us endings and gave them an -i plural. In British and Gaulish compounds, the first element is normally the stem, without any declension, so we would expect "Champion of the Cassi" to be *Cassovellaunos > Latin *Cassovellaunus and not Cassivellaunus. Incidentally, this means that the British Cassi have nothing to do with the various Gaulish tribes with names ending -casses; their names are from an i-stem, kasi- like that of Cassivellaunus. The stem *kasi- survives in Welsh and Irish and carries the meanings "Adversary" or "Bitter dispute". Cassivellaunus is therefore "The Opposing Champion" or perhaps "He who has Triumphed Over Opposition". What does Cassi mean? There's a possible *kaso- stem in Irish (see EDIL) which has to do with curls, twists, intricacy and difficulty. The Cassi could perhaps be "The Curly-Haired People", "The People on the River Bend" or "The Complex People".

What does it mean if the Cassi aren't the Catuvellauni? Where did they live? The four other tribes are listed as Cenimagni, Segontiaci, Ancalites and Bibroci. Are they neighbours of the Cassi? A popular theory is that "Cenimagni" is really Latin Iceni Magni (the Great Iceni) or Celtic Eceni Magli (the Royal Iceni) and the Cenimagni are therefore the Iceni of East Anglia. Unfortunately, Segontium is the Roman name for Caernarvon on the West Coast of Wales, so if it's anything to do with the Segontiaci, they're a long way away from the Cenimagni, interest in the conflict must have been very widespread and the Cassi therefore could have lived anywhere... except, of course, that if Cassivellaunus was Catuvellaunian, we know that his descendant, Caratacus, fled to Wales which suggests that there might have been an alliance or dynastic links with tribes in Wales, explaining the interest from an apparently remote region. The Cassi might then be expected to be somewhere nearby. If we follow Caesar, we can rule out Kent; it apparently was a confederacy of four rulers, all of whom sided with Cassivellaunus. That leaves the Southern, Western or Northern borders of Catuvellauni territory - the lands of the Atrebates, Dobunni and Corieltauvi/Coritani during the Roman occupation. Where there is a big bend in the Thames, on the South bank, is an Iron Age hillfort near Cassington Mill in Oxfordshire. Cassington is from an Old English word for watercress - caerse - not apparently from the Cassi, but all the same...! Any attempt at a precise location is a guess. Beausale Camp in Warwickshire is another hillfort in a river bend, on the Northwest border of Catuvellaunian territory.

Returning to the Segontiaci, The suffix -iacos is attested in Gaulish as a patronymic (not AFAIK in Brythonic) so the Segontiaci might not be the people from Segontium, but the family of Segontos or Segontios. That would make them more of a sept or clan than a tribe. The five tribes might not be tribes at all, only septs within the Catuvellauni who had decided that since Caesar couldn't be beaten, they would kick out Cassivellaunus and elect a new king. Caesar doesn't say anything on the matter, however. In this case the Cassi could be the Catuvellauni in the sense that they are possible holders of the Catuvellaunian kingship. Or perhaps the Cassi were a sept of the Trinovantes and when Caesar asked for hostages from Mandubracius, he sent some from each of the five septs who made up his tribe, including the Cassi. In this case they could be candidates for the Trinovantian kingship.

Please comment...

[chairman]

What evidence do we have for tribes in Britain around 272 BC? According to what you say, maybe the Cassi were a part of tribes in the area. Would it work to change out the "Casse" for, say, the Catuvellauni? Or do we not have very much information on them either?

Chairman

[Elmetiacos]

Precious little. We can look at archaeological evidence and make reasonable assumptions based on uninterrupted use of large hillforts and oppida. It's a fair bet that the Brigantes were around, for instance because some of the important sites occupied when the Romans arrived had been around a long time, such as Roulston Scar. One Catuvellauni site this old is Hunsbury Hill, but there seems to have been a lot of change in Southern England which might be linked to Belgic conquests which are supposed to have happened just before Caesar. I'm only just starting to look into all this.

[blitzkrieg80]

If we have a Latin plural Cassi, it's pretty much a certainty that the original word would be a Celtic o-stem. The singluar would be *Cassos from a stem *kaso-. The Romans Latinised Celtic (and also Greek) -os endings to -us endings and gave them an -i plural.

How can you be certain of this? Has any scholar supported such an assertion? Is this an educated guess based on examples only? How would you apply this to the plentitude of -i endings on Germanic tribes and all others? the same o-class IE nominative plural? Not a single tribe with the typical Latin -i ending has any other root than o-class?

[blitzkrieg80]

since the ethnicity trait in EB for the Casse says straightfowardly 'Handsome Ones' - the origin of that translation probably comes from *kastos for 'curly hair' or 'long hair' [as a woman]' seen in much use in the Hasdingi 'longhairs' (royal family of the Vandals) and the legendary Hadding, besides other IE, usage as a word of prestige among those with different standards to the 'Roman haircut' (in contrast to Meroving Longhairs and Gothic Capillati) and likely due to the high amount of care involved for long hair which isn't possible for lower classes who have hard labour to fill their time. Your etymology for 'battle' is correct but not concerning this unless you accounted for some kind of gemination (tt) as in Chatti > Hesse (tt>ss). In this instance its st>ss (being very common in IE- in general) as seen in Old Irish cass

concerning various British Isle Celtic dialects, I have found numerous evidence of -e noun endings... possibly agent noun derivatives?

if *kast- comes from *kes 'to comb', then Casse would very much be likely to be an agent noun

'abstract and collective meaning nouns expressed' in Old Irish suffix -e
OIr daire 'oakwood, grove', orbbae 'heritage'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...riol-10-X.html

Proto-British -eio
MW dirwy / OIr díre 'penalty, honor-price'

MW chwarae > chware 'play', MW river Tafwy > MoW Tawe
MoB doue < *deiwos
http://books.google.com/books?id=f_R...l=en#PPA216,M1 (also see page 289)

"B. Feminine and Abstract (Collectives),

a. A general suffix *-(e)h2 is found in Feminine, as in s&#233;nā-, old (*senah2, cf. Gk. h&#233;nē, Skr. śanā-, Lith. sen&#224;), swekrū́s, husband’s mother (*swekr&#250;h2-, cf. O.Sla. svekrŭ, Lat. socrus, O.H.G. swigar), in Abstract Collectives, as in Gk. tom, cut, or neur, rope made from sinew (IE n&#233;urom), etc., and in the Nom.-Acc. Neuter singular of the collective that functions as Nom.-Acc. Plural (cf. Skr. yug, Gk. zyg&#225;, Lat. iuga, Goth. juka, “jokes”, Hitt. -a, Pal. -a/-ā, etc.).
[...]
"C. [...] c. Adjectival suffixes -jo- and -ijo- have a relational sense, as in cow-j&#243;s, “of a cow/ox”, from cow-, cow, ox, as in Av. gaoya-, Skr. gavy&#225; or g&#225;vya, Gk. hekat&#243;m-boios, “that costs a hundred cows”, Arm. kogi (<cow-ijo-), “derived from the cow”, O.Ir. ambu&#230; (<ṇ-cow-ijo-, as in Skr. &#225;gos, Gk. abo&#250;teō), “man without cows”, or e.g. patri&#243;s, paternal, pedi&#243;s, “of the foot”, etc. As a nominal suffix, cf. Lat. ingenium, officium, O.Ir. cride, setig, Skr. vairya, saujanya, Sla. stoletie, dolia, etc.
b. It is also very well attested a Feminine and Abstract Collective -ī, PIE *-ih2, with variant -i, PIE *-jah2/-jeh2, cf. Skr. dev (Gen. dḗvyās), “goddess”, vṛkīs (Gen. vṛk&#237;as), “she-wolf”, etc."

this is all an amateur level of course, simple internet searching since i have no resources otherwise, yet it brings up some possibilities beyond a simple o-class plural suffix. yet, you could be right, suredly, but it's not like whoever created the name Casse didn't know about -i when Latin gives the stereotypical gloss and when the other Celtic factions have an -i. internally the Casse members refer to Cassi (probably similar to when Sweboz members refer to Suebi) so they definitely weren't unaware on that level. so the question that seems forever puzzling is, what is the -e suppose to be representing, purposefully different from Gallic faction names?


OT - what is the basis for the -ae suffix in Belgae anyways? it seems vaguely related and the Casse description does mention them.

btw, the provincial suffix *-ouw in EB is probably from IE for "river/water" - maybe you already knew this, but I remember you asked the question- and I am suprised I missed it myself. that's what i get for forsaking my hippocampus

[Elmetiacos]

How can you be certain of this? Has any scholar supported such an assertion? Is this an educated guess based on examples only? How would you apply this to the plentitude of -i endings on Germanic tribes and all others? the same o-class IE nominative plural? Not a single tribe with the typical Latin -i ending has any other root than o-class?

Probably. Certainly not an i-stem, because that gives a plural -es which is attested in Gaulish and Latin. The Romans wouldn't bother to change a plural termination which was already grammatically correct for their own language. Don't know why so many -i and -ii Germans compared to relatively few Britons with the same ending. From a statistician's point of view, they are both rather small samples.

[Elmetiacos]

since the ethnicity trait in EB for the Casse says straightfowardly 'Handsome Ones' - the origin of that translation probably comes from *kastos for 'curly hair' or 'long hair' [as a woman]' seen in much use in the Hasdingi 'longhairs' (royal family of the Vandals) and the legendary Hadding, besides other IE, usage as a word of prestige among those with different standards to the 'Roman haircut' (in contrast to Meroving Longhairs and Gothic Capillati) and likely due to the high amount of care involved for long hair which isn't possible for lower classes who have hard labour to fill their time. Your etymology for 'battle' is correct but not concerning this unless you accounted for some kind of gemination (tt) as in Chatti > Hesse (tt>ss). In this instance its st>ss (being very common in IE- in general) as seen in Old Irish cass

I didn't say "battle" as such. "Handsome Ones" is Daithi Ó hÓgain again. I confess to being baffled as to why he extended the meaning to 'handsome' but he must have his reasons. None of the Irish I can find and none of the Welsh, is about good looks and all of it is about non-straightness:
Old/Middle Irish
Caise - intricacy, crookedness; stream, rivulet
Cas - of curly hair / skilled, intelligent / knot
Casad - act of turning or twisting; a twist, turn or wrinkle
Casán - (meandering) footpath
Casnaide - wood shavings
Welsh
Cast - trick Castiau hud - juggling

The other kasi- root
Welsh
Cas - hatred, hateful
Casau - to hate
Caseion - enemies
Irish
Caise - legal claim/case (but could be a borrowing of Latin casus, of course)

concerning various British Isle Celtic dialects, I have found numerous evidence of -e noun endings... possibly agent noun derivatives?

if *kast- comes from *kes 'to comb', then Casse would very much be likely to be an agent noun

'abstract and collective meaning nouns expressed' in Old Irish suffix -e
OIr daire 'oakwood, grove', orbbae 'heritage'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...riol-10-X.html

Proto-British -eio
MW dirwy / OIr díre 'penalty, honor-price'

MW chwarae > chware 'play', MW river Tafwy > MoW Tawe
MoB doue < *deiwos
http://books.google.com/books?id=f_R...l=en#PPA216,M1 (also see page 289)

All these particular -e endings are too late for our period. There's coincidentally been debate on the Continental Celtic group about whether the name 'Noreia' is Celtic, with one side saying -eia above means it is, and the other saying nor- means it isn't.

"B. Feminine and Abstract (Collectives),

a. A general suffix *-(e)h2 is found in Feminine, as in sénā-, old (*senah2, cf. Gk. hénē, Skr. śanā-, Lith. senà), swekrū́s, husband’s mother (*swekrúh2-, cf. O.Sla. svekrŭ, Lat. socrus, O.H.G. swigar), in Abstract Collectives, as in Gk. tom, cut, or neur, rope made from sinew (IE néurom), etc., and in the Nom.-Acc. Neuter singular of the collective that functions as Nom.-Acc. Plural (cf. Skr. yug, Gk. zygá, Lat. iuga, Goth. juka, “jokes”, Hitt. -a, Pal. -a/-ā, etc.).
[...]

isn't that (e) a buffer before the laryngeal? /eh2/ seems to become a long A in proto-Celtic.

"C. [...] c. Adjectival suffixes -jo- and -ijo- have a relational sense, as in cow-jós, “of a cow/ox”, from cow-, cow, ox, as in Av. gaoya-, Skr. gavyá or gávya, Gk. hekatóm-boios, “that costs a hundred cows”, Arm. kogi (<cow-ijo-), “derived from the cow”, O.Ir. ambuæ (<ṇ-cow-ijo-, as in Skr. ágos, Gk. aboúteō), “man without cows”, or e.g. patriós, paternal, pediós, “of the foot”, etc. As a nominal suffix, cf. Lat. ingenium, officium, O.Ir. cride, setig, Skr. vairya, saujanya, Sla. stoletie, dolia, etc.
b. It is also very well attested a Feminine and Abstract Collective -ī, PIE *-ih2, with variant -i, PIE *-jah2/-jeh2, cf. Skr. dev (Gen. dḗvyās), “goddess”, vṛkīs (Gen. vṛkías), “she-wolf”, etc."

this is all an amateur level of course, simple internet searching since i have no resources otherwise, yet it brings up some possibilities beyond a simple o-class plural suffix. yet, you could be right, suredly, but it's not like whoever created the name Casse didn't know about -i when Latin gives the stereotypical gloss and when the other Celtic factions have an -i. internally the Casse members refer to Cassi (probably similar to when Sweboz members refer to Suebi) so they definitely weren't unaware on that level. so the question that seems forever puzzling is, what is the -e suppose to be representing, purposefully different from Gallic faction names?


OT - what is the basis for the -ae suffix in Belgae anyways? it seems vaguely related and the Casse description does mention them.

btw, the provincial suffix *-ouw in EB is probably from IE for "river/water" - maybe you already knew this, but I remember you asked the question- and I am suprised I missed it myself. that's what i get for forsaking my hippocampus

-ijo- crops up as a relative clause verb marker in Gaulish as io, but I don't know if it's the same as the PIE one. -ouw as PIE river is a weird choice for provincial names in 272BC. From my meagre knowledge of Latin, isn't -ae a first declension (the "O, table" one) giving singular Belga, Celtic *Belgâ or *Belgâs?

[Bellum]

Been following this for a few days, and I can't wait to see where it ends up.

[Elmetiacos]

Why is it so hard to find material on the tribes of Southern England? I've got plenty of baseless conjecture on the Brigantes, including a possible history from 500 BC to the Roman Conquest, but the Catuvellauni, Cassi et al. are proving elusive...

[Elmetiacos]

I'm currently looking at Celtic coins (http://www.celticcoins.ca/) in hope of finding something with CAS on... there are thousands of 'em... they sometimes show the heads of the kings (I think the Casse one on the EB loading screen may be the wrong head, by the way - I found the same pic and it's actually an unknown ruler of an unknown tribe http://www.celticcoins.ca/record.php?coin_id=000846 ) I've only managed to find CATTI (Dobunni, Severn Valley area) which may or may not be connected, but mostly what I've found so far are other snippets of information - coins generally have an animal of some sort on one side (in the case of the Catuvellauni it's usually a horse) and the head or a mint mark on the other (CAMV for Camulodunon appears frequently, and almost always with an ear of corn which seems to be the town's emblem) There are also some pictures of a mounted warrior which are worth looking at - they are seen with carnyxes, lances, javelins and swords, sometimes in mail, which on one coin appears to include sleeves, and helmets with a noticable brim. The coins show that the Britons had contacts with other cultures, as there are images of Artemis, Pegasus, sphinxes, lions and even a Persian style winged figure on some.

[blitzkrieg80]

nice job, Elmetiacos... as you mentioned, this stuff isn't easy to find... that's not sarcasm, but letting your know your posts are not wasted... it's interesting

[MeinPanzer]

There are also some pictures of a mounted warrior which are worth looking at - they are seen with carnyxes, lances, javelins and swords, sometimes in mail, which on one coin appears to include sleeves, and helmets with a noticable brim. The coins show that the Britons had contacts with other cultures, as there are images of Artemis, Pegasus, sphinxes, lions and even a Persian style winged figure on some.

Can you post a link to some of these please?

[Elmetiacos]

Silve coin of Cunobelinos from Camulodunon, with a seated winged figure:
http://www.celticcoins.ca/record.php?coin_id=680401
Another coin (Thanks to the fool who put a hole through it to wear as a pendant so you can't read the inscription...) with a sphinx:
http://www.celticcoins.ca/record.php?coin_id=680445
Pegasus on one side, a winged equestrian figure on the other:
http://www.celticcoins.ca/record.php?coin_id=700034

[paullus]

are the chain-mail wearing horsemen the ones with the dots, rather than solid pieces, composing their torso? I see those in the Catuvellauni subsection, and a lot of horsemen in general carrying narrow thureoi with pointed ends. And are the spoked wheels underneath the horses on some of the more stylized coins references to charioteering?

[Elmetiacos]

I'm not sure whether the wheel and horse design is a reference to charioteering or whether it's just a copy of the Graeco-Roman eight-spoked sun wheel symbol derived from Apollo (iirc). On one coin I noticed there was an actual chariot and someone was riding one of the ponies... it was very worn but it looked perhaps more like the goddess Epona than a warrior. The warriors in armour are difficult, because AFAIK the brimmed helmet is not typical and looks more Greek or Thracian, but would a Briton making a stamp for coins bother to make a rider look foreign unless he had a Greek coin in front of him and was copying? Did the Greeks or Romans make coins with cavalrymen on them? If not, it's hard to argue against it being a depiction of local arms and armour.

[MeinPanzer]

I'm not sure whether the wheel and horse design is a reference to charioteering or whether it's just a copy of the Graeco-Roman eight-spoked sun wheel symbol derived from Apollo (iirc). On one coin I noticed there was an actual chariot and someone was riding one of the ponies... it was very worn but it looked perhaps more like the goddess Epona than a warrior. The warriors in armour are difficult, because AFAIK the brimmed helmet is not typical and looks more Greek or Thracian, but would a Briton making a stamp for coins bother to make a rider look foreign unless he had a Greek coin in front of him and was copying? Did the Greeks or Romans make coins with cavalrymen on them? If not, it's hard to argue against it being a depiction of local arms and armour.

Once again, can you please link these coins you mentioned?

[paullus]

MP, try these sets:

armored rider carrying shield, looking back, throwing javelin?

unarmored rider, carrying karnyx? the fifth down is the most detailed, though I'm not sure all the coins in that series are actually the same, but they are at least similar.

armored rider, strange helmet

[Bellum]

Do you know about when these coins were made?

[Elmetiacos]

Most of the coins come from the 1st Century BC or just before the Claudian invasion. There are no British coins dated to as early as 272 BC, although there were Gaulish coins being struck at this time (copies of the Massilian drachma with the head of Artemis and the lion, which is copied on some British coins also)

I'm afraid I seem to have hit a dead end, now. I don't think it's possible to pin down the Casse any more precisely. They seem to have been a sub-tribe either of the Catuvellauni or the Trinovantes, but otherwise nothing to do with Cassivellaunus. Either way, they would start very small in EB.

[lobf]

Most of the coins come from the 1st Century BC or just before the Claudian invasion. There are no British coins dated to as early as 272 BC, although there were Gaulish coins being struck at this time (copies of the Massilian drachma with the head of Artemis and the lion, which is copied on some British coins also)

I'm afraid I seem to have hit a dead end, now. I don't think it's possible to pin down the Casse any more precisely. They seem to have been a sub-tribe either of the Catuvellauni or the Trinovantes, but otherwise nothing to do with Cassivellaunus. Either way, they would start very small in EB.

God, I hope it doesn't come off like I've got some kind of crusade against the Casse, but who would this faction even be? There's no history, nothing detailing their culture or habits or anything. It just seems too murky.

Forgive me, I just woke up and my words aren't running full speed yet.

[Elmetiacos]

Anyone in Britain is murky in 272 BC. The tribe we probably know most about is the Brigantes and even then, all we can really do is make an educated guess about where their capital was and that they'd been the dominant tribe in the North since c. 430 BC. If I had to choose a background for the Cassi based on history I'd make them a Trinovantian sept and put their capital at Braughing, a couple of spaces West of the current "Camulosadae" amidst a rather chaotic political situation in the South. There should be lots of Eleutheroi armies crawling all over. I'd call Braughing either:
Cassodunon - "Fortress of the Cassi"
Novodunon - "New fortress"
Abonauinda - "White river" because of the River Quin

The original name itself I think was probably *Castoi, not Casse.

[blitzkrieg80]

you might be interested to know that I am suggesting a name-change of Carrodunum to Karrodunon similar to what you suggested, since there is no reason such a far-away place would be Latinized during the EB start... so you were right on that

how could it be Castoi? isn't there a st/tt>ss rule? i am curious more than anything because i dont really understand how this rule applies to some things but not on others

[paullus]

having done a bit of reading on archaeological work in the area, it seems that the Middle Pre-Roman Iron Age (corresponding to La Tene B-C mainly) differs drastically in Britain from the Late Pre-Roman Iron Age (late LT C and LT D, roughly 150 BC on), with the latter period bringing the introduction of coinage, continental or Belgic pottery, larger and more developed oppida, and clearer signs of an organized, stratified society.

Now, the traditional interpretation has been to see in this the mid-2c arrival in SE England of Belgae tribes, and thus a shift in the social structure and material culture of SE Britain. It has also been argued that the changes seen in the mid-2c reflect the culmination of changes that began c.300 BC. In the 3c, previously undeveloped areas of "marginal" Britain began seeing greater development, and in their use of hillfort-oppida and more advanced use of land, the inhabitants of those lands demonstrate the ingenuity, organization, and precautions of large-scale successful pioneers, according to some interpretations. The slow emergence of social strata, signified by the very slow emergence of fibulae, and the development of both warrior burials or devoted weapons in the "marginal" zones from the 3c onwards, and chieftain burials in the SE oppida in the 1c bc, may indicate that the mid 2c event marks the culmination of developments that really began in the 3c.

The question then is how you want to interpret the various types of expansion. You see, in the 3c in the Midlands and such, this innovative expansionism. Because of the lack of evidence for a highly stratified society in the central areas, its hard to posit an organized project of expansion into the margins. But it does seem that the expansion projects have a reflexive effect on the older centers, at which places--by virtue of internal developments or by the arrival of Belgic invaders--some really powerfully evident changes take place relatively quickly in the middle and late 2c bc.

Also, Yorkshire, corresponding I suppose to the Brigantes, seems to be the place with the greatest evidence of La Tene culture: swords, torcs, inhumation ritual, metalworking of various sorts, etc, prior to the explosion of continental materials and oppida in the mid 2c.

And I haven't read it, but it sounds like Cunliffe's Iron Age Communities in Britain would be a useful source.

[Elmetiacos]

you might be interested to know that I am suggesting a name-change of Carrodunum to Karrodunon similar to what you suggested, since there is no reason such a far-away place would be Latinized during the EB start... so you were right on that

how could it be Castoi? isn't there a st/tt>ss rule? i am curious more than anything because i dont really understand how this rule applies to some things but not on others

What there is, in Gaulish specifically, is a change of st to "Tau Gallica" (similar to an eð but with the stroke all the way across) pronounced /ts/ or /ss/ hence the goddess Sirona (whose name derives from earlier ster-) sometimes appears as Ðirona. Since we've got words like cast, cystal and stwc in Welsh, it appears this change didn't happen in Brythonic, so if the meaning is curly-haired/complicated/handsome then it would have been *Castoi. Caesar used Gauls as interpreters in Britain, so they may pronounced it cass- or cats-.

[azzbaz]

Is it possible that the Castoi/Cassi weren't even in britain at this time but were part of the Belgae/Firbolgi tribal confederation? That maybe around 50bc migrated from the mainland to Britain to escape the Romans?
And isn't Braughing the 'Trinovantian' capital. I mean the Cassi and Trinovantes are seperate people, aren't they?
I reckon that the Brigantes should be the only tribe in Britain if so.

[Elmetiacos]

Only Commius fled to Britain to escape Caesar and only his tribe - the Atrebates - have the same name as a Belgic tribe. Presumably the Belgae conquered this part of Britain and ruled over it, enabling him to escape there, like the Portuguese government relocating to Brazil to escape Napoleon much later. Diviacus of the Suessiones is supposed to have been the man who started Belgic involvement in Britain c.100 BC but how large an area he conquered we don't really know because it's hard to decide on the exact significance of the archaeology, whether it was just the Atrebatic corner or whether that was all that was left of what had been a Belgic "empire" in Britain.

[cmacq]

Elmetiacos,

what are your thoughts on the Brigantes/Brigantion as a tribal confederation in Britain; Gaulic vs Belgic? If Gaulic I've always noted two problems; the Parisii (Gaulic or Belgic/I’ll say Gaulic but in fact may be Belgic) and evidence the tribal name was used in Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Gaul, Austria, and Hungary. If the Brigantes were Gaulic that would mean the Chariot Burials are actually associated with them, and the Parisii were Belgic newcomers that took a small portion of the Brigantes territory, shortly before the Romans arrived? I also see a similar problem, but for different reasons, with the Cantiaci, Cantabri, and Canenefates.


CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

I don't believe in the whole "waves of invaders" thing at all.

[General Appo]

Care to elaborate?

[cmacq]

Well, then let’s not call them invaders, instead we can call them illegal aliens, employed as labor or mercenaries, that eventually take over and invite others of their ilk to partake of the pie.