The Magnaura

[Cecil XIX]

I second Edict 1.4 in it's current form.

[The Lemongate]

I propose Edict 1.6 That a ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry a commander and a battalion of spearmen to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari.

[AussieGiant]

Having resumed leaning against the wall near the entrance while listening to the ongoing debate the young Saracen looking officer moves again near the inner circle to speak.

His voice is measured and firm.

I have a question for this body of men.

Recent preaching’s by the Orthodox church here in Byzantium has lead to rumours of the current Catholic Pope considering calling for a Crusade to the Holy Land.

Would those here support this move by the Western Nations and the Catholic church or not?

Again the young officer takes a few measured steps back and waits for a response.

[pevergreen]

Michail rises, slowly taking his eyes off the young officer.
"A catholic presence in the area around Antioch will prove...difficult. I think it would be wise to wait a while, rather than risk the fury that would be a Crusade."

Michail, as he speaks, walks past the general populace of the Magnaura. His eyes contain barely hidden anger as he passes Philippos and Savvas, dropping what seems to be piece of cloth into their hands. As he passes them, his face returns to its normal feature. Impassive.His eyes reveal more though, a cold calculation like a vengance has begun.

[flyd]

Markianos Ampelas stands and faces the Saracen

I have a question for you as well. You will have to excuse me, but the combination of your appearance and your admission to this building by the guards is most perplexing. If you do not mind it, would you tell us who you are, how you are here, and why you are dressed in such a manner?

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios first turns to Anastasios Neokaisareitis.

While I am not sure, Edict 1.2 as it stands would make it optional for the Megas to take Bari. If you would like to present an edict that adds Bari to the list, you can amend yours to be more like Edict 1.4.

Otherwise, I fear the passage of Edict 1.2 might cancel out Edict 1.6 as it is written.

I hope this helps.

He then turns to Apionnas Vringas.

The Order opposes the Catholic Crusades. The Holy Land is not to be held by Muslims or Catholics. But by the Empire. This is why I feel so urgent in needing to get over to Antioch now. I am starting to hear rumors that the Catholic Pope will call for more Franks to invade the Holy Land.

Before you know it, even the Germans will be over there. And I think we can all agree that is something we do not want. (OOC: )

[AussieGiant]

Thank you for your responses Strator Arianitis and Comes Ksanthopoulos. I take it then that the Order of St John will oppose western Crusades travelling through Byzantine lands?

Turning, the young officer bows his head in the direction of Markianos Ampelas.

I have many names but the one that is of most relvance here is Apionnas Vringas. My father was a member of the Byzantine nobility until his death some decade ago.

I am however an officer in the recently disgrace Mansuriyya slave regiment of the Mamluk Sultan of Egypt.

What I am wearing is our uniform.

[Privateerkev]

Strator Apionnas Vringas,

First off, I wish to welcome you back home. I've done some reading on the Saracens and I thought I recognized your clothing but I didn't feel right asking about it.

Second, to answer your question, I can see no good that could come from letting Catholic Crusader armies onto our lands. No good at all.

[Kagemusha]

So Makedonios Ksanthopoulos, if the Franks launch a crusade to the holy land, we should kill them in order to prevent them from reaching the Outremer?

[flyd]

Markianos Ampelas nods at Apionnas Vringas.

Yes, very good then. I shall address your question. Anyone who attacks the Turks and Saracens is a friend of mine. If the westerners wish to fight them, I welcome them, with two reservations: firstly, I would be cautious about the strategic situation their conquest of the holy land would put the Empire in, assuming them to be friendly to us only as long as it benefits their interests. Secondly, I would prefer that the old Patriarchates be brought back under our Church, and not follow the apostate in Rome, though even that would be better than to have them in Muslim hands.

Ampelas sits down, still keeping an eye on Vringas. It is obvious he is somewhat uncomfortable with that man's... Saracenness? Saracenicty?

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios turns to Ioannis Kantakouzinos,

No, we should stop them from entering Byzantine land period. I do not trust Catholic Crusader armies. They do not see us as Christians. Therefore, we will not be exempt from their depravity. Regardless of the Catholics Crusade's target, a Catholic Crusader Army should not be allowed within the Empire's borders. Ever.

[Kagemusha]

Makedonios Ksanthopoulos, that is not an answer. Do you really think that if the Western pope calls for a crusade and all the Western petty kingdoms join it, or even some of them, once reaching our land they will just turn around when we send messengers to them telling them to turn around?
Is it worth a war with other Christians, to try and stop them from fighting the Saracens?

[Privateerkev]

Catholic Crusade armies can not attack Catholic cities and armies. But we are not Catholic. So, if a Catholic Crusader army feels like sacking an Orthodox city, they can and the Pope will not say a word against it.

No, I simply see no reason for letting large numbers of Catholics wander around the Empire.

[Kagemusha]

Well then i must understand that as yes to my original question. Maybe it would be better to relocate the brotherhood in that case to the Western border of the Empire in order to "stop" the western Crusaders when they come and leave it to the other armies of Empire to claim back the outremer.

Ioannis takes his seat.

[Privateerkev]

Catholic Crusader armies are a threat to the whole empire. We are not protected from attack by the Pope like the Catholics are.

[deguerra]

Ioannis Kalameteros enters, dust from the road still on his coat from a hard ride. He walks over to the section of House Asteri, reads over what has been said thus far and rises to speak

Strators,

Without meaning disrespect, there has been too much beating around the bush. It is clear that what we all want is quite simple, and I believe by stating it outright we are making things less confusing.

We need land. The Empire is but a shadow of its past glory and that needs to be rectified, and the factions and it's members need lands to call their home. This is the main objective. Obviously, we cannot pass an edict to conquer the world, since this is unfeasible. We need some sort of restraint, in terms of distance and expense.

In that faculty, I believe edict 1.2, as amended by edict 1.4 to be perfect. It grants the Basielos the flexibility to expand, and seems to satisfy all the factions' more immediate need for land. If the Order is intent on Antioch, and are as capable of capturing it quickly and effectively as they claim, I see no reason for denying them.

Edict 1.1 is useless. I hereby swear allegiance and loyalty to Aleksios Komenus, pistos en Christō tō Theō Basileus Autokratōr Rōmaiōn, to serve and obey to my life's end so help me God. There is no need for a formal edict. This is a matter of personal preference, not one for the senate.

I would also like to formally endorse and second Edict 1.6, although I would prefer it changed to fit into the scope of Edict 1.2.

[AussieGiant]

The young officer finishes writing a small note and hands it to an official before again moving slightly into the chambers inner circle to make further comment.

My Lords I do not wish to cause any further reason for agitation here in this chamber.

It seems most are clear about not wanting to admit Crusading Catholic Armies into these lands, the real issue seems to be about how best refuse them admittance without cause further conflict.

I would state at this time that this issue may need an solid answer faster than most here think.

The Turks are already active and the wheels of war are turning towards inevitable conflict. I would choose who to fight and who not to fight before the choices are made for you all.

Perhaps the Basileus could request the Patriarch tone down his preaching’s and requests for assitance towards the Catholic Pope?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

My Lords, I bring word that His Eminence Nicholas III, Patriarch of Constantinople, has completed a Proclamation regarding his thoughts on the direction that the Byzantine Empire and the Orthodox faith should take in the coming years. I expect that it will make its way to the Magnaura shortly.

[BananaBob]

Nathanail ek Korinthou has seemed thoroughly disenfranchised by the discussion taking place, but his face grows more and more engaged in the debate around him as it appears to reaching some sort of resolution. He stands to speak, and says with a clam and steady voice:

Do not be mistaken, Ioannis Kantakouzinos, and think that the latins and their vulgar take on the word of the lord are our friends! They and their pope are no better then the turks that threaten our very borders as we speak! That very same pope does Byzantium grave insult by not recognizing us as the sucessors of the Roman Empire. Both the Catholics and Muslims are fanatic and dangerous foes that cannot be trusted.

We are the inheritors of the greatest civilization that mankind has seen. When the west fell, we remained strong. And, as harsh a reality as it may be, great Byzantium herself may be nothing more then a memory in merely decades if we do nothing to stop our present decline. I can fully support our need to reclaim as many provinces as possible to reestablish a foothold in the east. Whatever steps necessary must be taken to stop the ignorance of the east and west from plundering the empire, I will endorse.

Nathanail pauses and looks gravely to his fellow senators.

But we cannot forget that our culture, our great religion and the knowledge we have inherited are equally important to the well being of our empire. The Order of St.John was founded on this principle. Our purpose is to protect the birthplace of our lord from the grubby hands of barbarians, to preserve our great Orthodox faith -with military power if necessary- and to ensure that the places that mean so much to Byzantium and her people are safeguarded. I cannot see how the restoration of our empire cannot include the conquest of Outremer. It is more important to us then any material holding, as it our very identity that is at risk along side our borders.

He pauses, catching his breath.

Surely you all must see this?

[AussieGiant]

Raising his eyebrows at the mentioning of Muslim fanatics the young Saracen officer gazes around the chamber waiting for a response to Strator's proclamation.

[pevergreen]

Michail rises

"I see Nathanail, that we must conquer Outremer in time. There is no doubt that we must take Antioch and Jerusalem, but more pressing issues are here. Am I correct in my question that current edicts are still valid after this term? If we were to pass an edict now, relating to the capture of Outremer, will it stay in effect?

Come george, take this note."

Michail seats himself, and expecting glance fixating on a few members, then the doorway.

[The Lemongate]

Makedonios first turns to Anastasios Neokaisareitis.

While I am not sure, Edict 1.2 as it stands would make it optional for the Megas to take Bari. If you would like to present an edict that adds Bari to the list, you can amend yours to be more like Edict 1.4.

Otherwise, I fear the passage of Edict 1.2 might cancel out Edict 1.6 as it is written.

I hope this helps.

Ah good Comes, I hate to correct you here, but in legal matters, the exception always defies the general rule. Should both edicts 1.2 and 1.6 pass, 1.6 clearly marks an exception to 1.2 and so supersedes it in regards to its specific text.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pointless debate really. But we're in a Civil Law system and that would be the result. Don't make me dig out historical examples, it'd give me headaches.

[deguerra]

Need I remind Anastasios that I have already seconded and endorsed his edict?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

My Lords, the Proclamation of 1081 has been released. I have been directed by my master to address and respond to any words directed at it.

[AussieGiant]

After receiving another note from an official, the Saracen officer moves from the back of the chamber and approaches the seated form of Strator Michail.

There is a moments hesitation as the young officer seems to consider something, but it passes quickly. He reaches out a hand and touches the shoulder of the seated Strator.

They take each others wrists in the traditional warriors grip.

As-salam alaykum Sadiq. Thank you for your invitation.

With that the officer takes a seat next to the Strator.

[The Lemongate]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lol, sorry, missed it

There, there, I corrected the rant

[pevergreen]

Michail has a half-smile on his face, quite happy that his new friend has taken him up on his offer. Looking around at the shocked faces, he looks each of those shocked Senators in the eyes, showing he is not intimidated. He has a copy of the Patriachial Proclamation in front of him, and after reading through it, he stands:


"What the Patriach suggests, will not work. A display of strength may show us as a threat, forcing the Catholic nations into a fight. We should, dear Senators, wait until they have either taken or failed in trying to take the area. Then whoever remains will be weakened. It is for the good of the empire gentlemen."

[GeneralHankerchief]

Patriarchal Representative:

If we wait until the Catholics have taken the East then they will be surrounding us and nothing will prevent us from being swallowed up.

A strike in the exact opposite direction from the Catholics should not concern them greatly, if at all.

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis Komnenos seizes a pause in the debate to stand up and address the Senate.

Senators, have we so soon forgotten the lesson of Manzikert? Antioch is a city, indeed a most important city, but what is a city worth if it cannot be defended? It is madness to even think of recapturing Antioch until all of Anatolia has been returned to the Roman fold. Only then, can any occupation of Antioch be sustainable.

Patience is required, senators. The most important task is to restore the frontier in Anatolia, not to go on private expeditions against isolated cities.

I second edicts 1.2 and 1.3.

The Caesar resumes his seat.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios reads the Proclamtion and ponders it carefully. He then unrolls many large maps on the table.

First off, let me say that I welcome the wise words of His Eminence Nicholas III.

Unfortunately, as I have learned today, not everyone is swayed by religious arguments.

I have looked into the neighboring rebel provinces. Here they are, plus a couple that have been mentioned in the Senate. Also, I have the approximate number of regiments guarding each place. I have grouped them into settlement types to make a point.

Village:
Durazzo: 3

Motte and Bailey:
Smyrna: 5
Adana: 6

Town:
Sinop: 4

Wooden Castle:
Sofia: 7
Scopia: 7
Bari: 6
Arta: 6
Rhodes: 3
Canakkale: 5
Trebisond: 4

Minor City:
Antioch: 7

As you can see, Antioch will become the second biggest city in Byzantium when it is captured. While the other rebel settlements are important, it will be some time before they are generating much income. While some will be kept as castles, most will have to be converted to cities, which will in itself cost money.

So this idea that taking Antioch is a waste of money is simply not true.

The Order can besiege this city with 8 units that we already have, by "turn 2". By "turn 3", we will have 2 more units in the army and 2 standing by as reinforcements. Then it is just a matter of waiting the garrison out or, if we feel we have the advantage, assault the city. If we siege, we will have Antioch by "turn 8." And that is with the units that are already on Cyprus.

We can do this.

As for defending Antioch, there are exactly 3 ways in. A river crossing to the north, a river crossing to the east, and Tortosa to the south. And Tortosa is only a wooden castle with some pilgrims and a couple of generals. And they can only recruit peasants. The rest of Antioch's neighbors are "rebels". Petty local warlords.

So not only can we take it, but we can hold it.

All we need is the chance to prove it.