The Magnaura

[The Lemongate]

I understand and respect your concerns, Comes Ampelas.

I fear however, that nothing will stop the Normans from moving even further against the Empire. Less then ten years ago, southern Italy was ours. Where will the Normans be in another ten years? Why should they stop in Italy?

I am confident in my abilities to lead a very small group of men against much larger odds. God trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge.

Should the Senate and the Empire put its trust in me, I shall not fail.

I have faith in the Senate's judgement over these matters, but acknowledge your position.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Psalm 144:1-2

[flyd]

And I understand your concerns, good Strator. But the Normans are, at least, across the sea. They are no more of an inherent threat to us than other foreign powers, some of those who have very direct access to us. Less then ten years ago we held most of Anatolia too, and now the Turk sits on our plateau, emboldened by his recent decisive victory. They are a much bigger threat than these Normans, who may yet stay away from us if not provoked.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios Tagaris stands with a grave look upon his face.

I will propose the following Edict :

Edict 1.9 : Strator Tagaris is given the mission of claiming the rebel village of Durazzo for the Empire. He alone has mandate to claim it in the name of the Empire. No troops will be put under his command for said mission. Upon completion, the settlement is to be given to the Basileos to do with it as he sees fit. The town will be occupied.

The people of Dyrrakhion are Greeks, they were part of the Empire until a few years ago and have only rebelled through Italian intervention, Italian money funding their rebellion.

A quick end can be put to this with few losses on either side.

I know that some of you have their eyes set on that little place but I fear for the people of Dyrrakhion when I see the generals volunteering either too fond of violence (this with a look towards Neokaisareitis), somewhat deranged (with a puzzled look for Monomachos) or with unknown motivations (looking at Arianitis). And this are only those I know of.

Imagine 4 units of heavy cavalry riding to rid a small village of a few farmers turned militia... And maybe even using of every trick to be the first to reach it... This would not do honor to any of us, and neither to our Basileos...

As all can see from the wording of the Edict, I seek no personal advancement from this short campaign. I won't be taking with me any other soldiers but my retinue, freeing most of you to concentrate on more valid targets like Arta, Sophia or Scopia, or even Bari.

I have already received sanction from our Basileus to present the said Edict and I hope that it will be seconded and will gain enough support to pass legislation.

Also, I hereby pledge myself to the defense of that village against all comers until funds can be spared to properly garrison it, even if it costs me my life.

I have no fear of death, should it come for the greater good of the Empire.

Tagaris sits back down, looking for support in the eyes of his fellow senators.

[Kagemusha]

Surely such brave undertaking, without wish for personal gain should be accepted. If Basileos have consented this act. Who are we to deny it from you. I second Edict 1.9

[_Tristan_]

I thank you, Strator Kantakouzinos, for your support.

[TinCow]

*Khristophoros Diogenis raises an eyebrow.*

You seek no personal advancement? How is that possible when you are proposing legislation that requires the Basileus to send you, and only you, to conquer a nearby province? If you are truly impartial in the matter, surely you would trust the Basileus' judgment about who would be best to lead this attack. No, your legislation is anything but selfless. The proper way to achieve your aims would be to reduce the Edict to limitations requiring that Durazzo be occupied and turned over to the Basilues, then simply volunteer your services and let the Basileus decide. As it is worded now, this is clearly an attempt to grab personal glory.

[_Tristan_]

What glory ? Getting rid of a few rioting farmers ? What glory is there in that ?

My only goal through this Edict is to prevent what is in the works right now : a wild chase of too many generals as possible towards the same goal, while their skills and numbers could be put to better use elsewhere, capturing more worthy settlements.

Glory indeed... I may very well find it in death if the Venetians or Sicilians take ombrage of our reclaiming Dyrrakhion, their prospective beach-head on Greek soil...

Were you also one to want to march on Dyrrakhion ? Does my edict foil your plans ?

One last comment : As I said, the Basileus has given me his sanction to propose this Edict, but it has not been voted yet.

[TinCow]

Your Edict is of no personal concern to me. I will be marching with my Lord, Comes Aleksios ek Ikoniou, towards whatever target the Basileus believes we should attack. The House of the Tagamata is above all else loyal to the Basileus and we will happily leave military strategy up to his wise counsel.

In any case, I seem to have made an error of law. I made my previous comments on the assumption that the Basileus could implement what you said even without the Edict. However, I forgot that Durazzo has no walls and that Senators are free to ride wherever they please, regardless of the wishes of the Megas. As such, various interested Senators could indeed do just ask you warned even though the Basileus would desire otherwise. Your Edict is therefore necessary to ensure that imparitality and fairness are applied to the conquest of that settlement.

I humbly apologize for my error, I will prove the sincerity of this statement by seconding Edict 1.9. I also urge the Basileus to provide Senator Tagaris with at least some small force. It would be a true shame to see such an honorable man fall in battle.

[The Lemongate]

I resent your undertoned accusations senator Tagaris. Never in my life have I done anything against the word of God. Do we not pray daily for our Lord to avenge us? The Bible says: Blessed is the man you discipline, O Lord, the man you teach from your law. Leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay.”

We must not let ourselves grow weak and complacent in the face of rebels who would sooner disown our Empire and our Church when in truth, as Senators of the foremost city of Christendom we are the agents of faith and law. Rebellion and treason are sins in the eyes of the Lord. It is like would-be vassals who reneged their commitments after being received with open arms, Senator Tagaris…

I have not laid any claim to Durazzo, but indeed, you are correct in saying I plan on riding towards it. Senator Arianitis even proposed it in legislation without me even prompting him to.

I support Edict 1.7 and I believe Edict 1.9, even though only good intentions are proferred, tells more about the ambitions of its author then what his good words would have us believe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Psalm 94:1, 12

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Romans 12:19

[Andres]

I agree with the initial statement of Strator Khristophoros Diogenis on Edict 1.9. I do not question your noble intentions, dear Strator Methodios Tagaris, but you certainly will agree with me that we must avoid at all costs the slightest air of favouritism or suspicions of masked desires for personal glory.

Methodios Tagaris, if you would rephrase your Edict and word it like this:

"The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send (a) general(s) or troops of his choice to conquer said settlement. After the village of Durazzo has been conquerend, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit."

Then I would whole-heartedly support it.

[TinCow]

My esteemed colleague from the Tagamata proposes a good alternative, genericizing the Edict to achieve what Senator Tagaris wishes, but leaving the ultimate choice of which Senator is to lead the attack up to the Basileus. I will keep my second on Edict 1.9 for now, but I would like to urge Senator Tagaris to adopt the alternation, with a bit of extra language to make it more clear:

"The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send (a) general(s) or troops of his choice to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquerend, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit."

This achieves your aim, Senator Tagaris. If the Basileus truly favors you as you state, then you will be chosen and sent forward just as in the current language. In addition, this altered Edict would allow the Basileus to provide you with at least some minimal reinforcements, if he deemed it necessary. I urge you to adopt these changes to your Edict.

[Ramses II CP]

Strator Vissarionas returns to the Senate floor with somewhat less enthusiasm than on his first visit. Upon reviewing the notes of what has just been said, however, excitement arises in his eyes.

By God gentlemen Strator Tagaris has hit upon just the sort of courageous, selfless, and chivalrous course our nation needs in this time of decay and politics. I second Edict 1.9 as currently written, just in case more fickle senators might choose to withdraw their endorsement, and will be praying for the good Strator's success!

With a brief bow towards Strator Tagaris, Vissarionas returns to his seat at the Order's table.

[_Tristan_]

To prove that I seek no personal glory nor gain from this venture, I will rephrase my Edict. I would not have it said that our Basileos shows favoritism to one of his Senators.

Edict 1.9 :The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send a general to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquered, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit. the town will be occupied.

You will notice that I have stated that only one general should be sent towards Dyrrakhionas the main goal of my Edict was to free as many of our Strators and of our troops for wothier targets. I have also added the occupation clause, as I do not want harm to come to the poor and gullible people of Dyrrakhion whose only failing was to believe in the false promises of the Italians.

I hope this new version of my Edict will be more to your tastes.

I have no other hope than to serve the Empire to the best of my abilities but I am first and foremost a military man, not a politician so I may be a bit too straightforward in my assessment of a problem and its solutions.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I also resent the Senator's statements. God is my judge, Senator, and I will dismiss your opinions of me as being a legitimate basis for denying me my noble right to claim rebel lands for the Empire. Unless the Emperor specifically forbids me from taking Durazzo, that has been my stated ambition from the very beginning.

I will promise to occupy our province, as there is nothing there of value to pillage, and the profits from pillaging would not be mine to keep anyway. I serve the Emperor and my house, not naked ambition, which you seem to, Tagaris.

Furthermore, I see that it is no business of yours who takes the settlement anyway. This entire edict seems designed to deny those who have already staked a claim to Durazzo from taking it, while allowing for some nameless senator to claim it instead, or you yourself. Utter nonsense.


"Freeing our Strators for other causes".... BAH!

It is my cause sir. You just seek to deny it to me. You don't even hide it well.

[Ramses II CP]

Immediately Vissarionas rises,

I second the amended Edict 1.9 and salute the wisdom and courage of Strator Tagaris. God and Basileus willing I pray we someday have the chance to serve at one another's side.

Vissarionas again bows briefly before returning to his seat.



OOC: I propose that any time an Edict is amended a letter be added to the end to denote the fact that there have been changes and new seconds are required. For example:

Edict 1.9
Edict 1.9a
Edict 1.9b

etc.

edit: To clarify why I think this is necessary, I very nearly posted my second to Edict 1.9 after it had been amended already. If that had happened and I hadn't been paying attention, I could've ended up endorsing an Edict I didn't intend to. Adding a letter for each amendment will prevent this possibility.

[Privateerkev]

I second Edict 1.9

OOC: An updated Edict tally is in the spoilers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Edict 1.1: At any given moment, the Basileus can decide to use all resources of the Empire for a direct assault on Rome. Every nobleman who is ordered to join this assault on Rome, will have to follow the call of the Emperor and will use all his available resources for the conquest of Rome.

Proposed by Savvas ek Militou

Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, and Rhodes before they can be released for other purposes. Bari and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conquered by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.

Proposed by Khristophoros Diogenis
Seconded by Markianos Ampelas and Pavlos Chrysovergos

Edict 1.3: A Priest is to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.

Proposed by Pavlos Chrysovergos
Seconded by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and Savvas ek Militou

Edict 1.4: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch will be added to the list.

Proposed by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Seconded by Hypatios Machonios and Iakovos ek Kallipoleos

Edict 1.5: The training of a boat or hiring of a mercenary craft is required outside of Athens in order to transport men to Rhodes, as per Edict 1.2. The fleet we already own further North may also be used if it has no other orders.

Proposed by Hypatios Machonios
Seconded by Armatos ek Naksou and Makedonios Ksanthopoulos

Edict 1.6: That the nearest ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry commander and a battalion of spearmen or another eager commander to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari. This edict is meant to supersede any restrictions or discretionary powers mentioned in Edict 1.2 or any other Edicts.

Proposed by Anastasios Neokaisareitis
Seconded by Ioannis Kalameteros and Armatos ek Naksou

Edict 1.7: The Empire shall strive to capture Durazzo and Arta utalising the General's Anastasios and Michail respectively, within the first "term".

Proposed by Michail Arianitis
Seconded by Anastasios Neokaisareitis

Edict 1.8: The creation of 2 agents. A diplomat to make contact with the Orthodox Factions of the north for an alliance and trade. The other diplomat to head west to contact European Factions for diplomatic talk and trade.

Proposed by Aleksios ek Ikoniou
Seconded by Khristophoros Diogenis and Methodios Tagaris

Edict 1.9: The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send a general to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquered, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit. the town will be occupied.

Proposed by Methodios Tagaris
Seconded by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and Vissarionas ek Lesvou

[Askthepizzaguy]

This Edict 1.9 is a waste of time. It's political posturing and you all know it.

Strators already have permission to claim rebel lands for the empire. The sole purpose of this edict is to deny houses other than your own the right to expand.

Such naked partisanship is an insult to the unity of the empire.

[Privateerkev]

But Senator Tagaris belongs to no House and is giving the province to the Emperor.

Your statement makes little sense.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Of course it does. Just because someone hasn't pledged to a house, that doesn't mean he can't act as an agent thereof.

And I'm sure senators who belong to a rival house are leaping for the oppurtunity to deny other houses a chance to claim provinces. That is what saddens me the most.

[The Lemongate]

Truth be told Senators, you might revise your opinions of our fellow Tagaris in light of what I will tell you.

Tagaris, though independent in public, had pledge himself in private to the House of Asteri. After having heard of the plans that my colleage Monomachos and I were forming concerning Epirus, he decided to back off on his word and remain independent.

In such a light, Edict 1.9 seems only to be a vindictive legislation whose only point is to foil men of goodwill.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maybe I wasn’t totally clear, but I seconded Edict 1.7. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Privateerkev]

OOC: It is fixed.

It would help if everyone used the words "second" and bolded them.

[_Tristan_]

I have not insulted you, Monomachos...

It is not I who has come here in the Senate in the ludicrous disguise of a buffoon...

But do not start to make false assertions about me... I belong to no House and have no plans to join one at this time...

I will not deny I have been approached by the Order but have refused the offer made.

My only loyalty is only to the Basileos... As my deeds will soon prove...

Or do you also accuse our Basileos of partisanship ?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Honourable Colleague, that is not even what concerns me.

The fact is, this entire edict is written for the express purpose of denying a house the right to claim a rebel province.'

There can BE NO PURPOSE TO THIS EDICT other than political rivalry. If we TRULY cared about expanding the empire and acting as one people, no one would limit the expansion of the empire into rebel lands if houses wish to risk their own troops.

Point blank, it's no one's business who takes what province. This edict would make sense IF the Senator wished to claim the province himself, but he doesn't, he wishes to "claim it for the emperor" which is precisely what any other house would be doing. Had he wished to claim it for himself it might make more sense, and perhaps we could resolve it.

The Emperor has thusfar not informed anyone to my knowledge that he seeks to deny houses the right to claim lands for themselves.

Bottom line, is that the edict is entirely a waste of time, a naked partisan move which threatens our unity, and it has no other purpose except to deny houses their legitimate right to claim and capture rebels. There can be no other interpretation.

I frankly don't care which house Tagaris does or does not belong to. By proposing this edict, he is threatening the rights of other houses for no legitimate cause.

[Andres]

I second Edict 1.9 (b) as amended and rewritten by our esteemed colleague, Strator Tagaris.

[Privateerkev]

I did indeed give Methodios Tagaris an invitation to join the Order. But he respectfully declined.

He is a good man and I support him in his endeavors. I will pray for him and wish him luck.

[Andres]

Efstratios Monomachos, I find your lack of faith and trust in the judgement of our Basileus disturbing.

[_Tristan_]

Every coin has two sides, Neokaisareitis...

You have shown us only one side...

The House of Asteri asked me to join and I considered joining until I saw the direction the House was taking... A direction I could not endorse...

I don't know how my Edict could be considered as vindictive legislation... Surely not with how the Edict has been rephrased... Maybe our Basileus will choose you over me for that mission... Or will you also call him vindictive ?

[The Lemongate]

It is not an accusation Tagaris, but a statement of fact.

Did you not sign our charter with your blood? The name is still on the list, crossed out of course. And did you not hear from me the lack of proper defenses around Durazzo, and the ease with which the settlement could be brought back into the imperial fold?

Truly, you are of bad faith and even worse character if you deny those simple facts. And though I do not always see eye to eye with my lieges in the House of Asteri, they can vouch for my word on this matter.

Your legislation is indeed aimed only at disrupting us. As Durazzo would be reclaimed by the Empire in any case and it is even mentionned in Edict 1.2. If the Basileos wants to stake claims, he can speak for himself. Or would you pretend to put speak and pass legislation in his name?

[Privateerkev]

Did Tagaris not say that he got the permission of the Emperor himself to propose this Edict?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have not insulted you, Monomachos...

It is not I who has come here in the Senate in the ludicrous disguise of a buffoon...

In the very same breath the Senator makes an assertion and then does completely the opposite thing. And they call me the fool...

But do not start to make false assertions about me... I belong to no House and have no plans to join one at this time...

I don't care what house you do or do not belong to. The fact is you're proposing an edict to deny other houses the right to claim lands, and it's being suspiciously supported by ALL THE MEMBERS of a certain house.

You really do mistake me for a fool, don't you?

I will not deny I have been approached by the Order but have refused the offer made.

I don't care, it's none of my business who you serve.

Or do you also accuse our Basileos of partisanship ?

Hah! That's called a red herring sir. Instead of argue your point, you try to give me something tempting to argue or defend against. I will not fall for your feeble rhetorical devices which are nothing but a blatant attempt to distract from the real issues here.

You seek to deny me and my house and my colleagues the right to claim rebel provinces which we have staked a claim to for a long time now. That's all you're doing, and it's the only purpose of this edict, plain and simple. You can disguise it as "serving the emperor" all you want, but I see through your deceptive ways.

You could at least be honest. Just tell us you don't want us taking Durazzo for our house. At least be a man and own up to your political ambitions.