The Magnaura

[Cecil XIX]

I fully support the Crusade on Cairo.

Thus, I propose Edict 3.1-

War is to be declared on the Fatamid Caliphate, and a Crusade on Cairo is to be assembled and launched, as per the Patriarchal Proclamation.

[Privateerkev]

I second Edict 3.1

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios raises from his seat. He looks around and waits till the voices get quiet enough so that he could speak and says..

"Our family are known as brave warriors and as good Christians."

"So.." Efstathios looks in front of him for a second, sighs and then raises his eyes again..

"I will join this crusade for the good of the Christian people in Cairo and for the good of the Empire!"

Determination sounded from his voice while saying this..

Looking Vissarionas he continues..

"It would be a honor to join our forces noble Vissarionas ek Lesvou. Also I would like to know more about Cairo and it's people. Surely not all of them are as bloodthirsty like their Caliph?"

[Andres]

Dear Basileus,
Dear Caesar,
Dear Senators,


As you all know, I am not a man for religious fanaticism.

What is happening in Cairo as we speak cannot go unnoticed.

We are Romans and therefore, it is our moral duty to bring civilisation into the known world. Killing Christians because of their belief, is not civilised, to say the least, and thus cannot be allowed as long as there is a Byzantine Empire! This fanatic nutjob of a Caliph needs to be punished!

Savvas inhales after his outburst.

Talking about religious fanaticism, there's also the matter of the crusades called by the Catholic Pope. In my humble opinion, the Megas Logothetes made the right decisions during his term.

Of course, most of us are not happy with crusaders wandering through our Empire.

Of course, the hostile behaviour of the Germans was outrageous.

But... our Empire couldn't afford a war on two different fronts during the mandate of Markianos Ampelas.

Thanks to Markianos, we now do have the means for a war on two fronts.

The recent events in Cairo however, oblige us to pick that region as our second front.

My esteemed colleagues, given the current situation, the Crusade on Cairo should be a priority.

Other priorities are the strenghtening of our Western and Northern frontiers to prevent the crusades on Jerusalem to take "a detour" through Constantinople and, of course the War against the Turks, who still haven't suffered enough for the disasters they caused to our Empire in the past.

There's also a practical reason for the importance of continuing the war against the Seljuks: our efforts for the Crusade and the strengthening of our frontiers will require florins. Alot of florins. Florins that can be acquired by sacking the cities of those damnable Turks.

Since both my lord and me have to take care of our own territories, the rather small House of Tagamata unfortunately cannot send one of its' members on the Crusade.

However, let it not be said that House Tagamata will neglect its' duties during this time of peril.

As Arthimos (protector of the Royal Family) in the House of Tagamata, I am willing to take care of our funds, our frontiers and to offer support on the war efforts of my fellow Senators during the Crusade.

I remind all of you that I am experienced both in battle as in politics and that my actions thus far have proven me to be a loyal servant of the Empire.

Most of you will probably remember that I left my own settlement, Arta, and took its' entire garrison with me to march to our Northern frontier the very moment I heard about the large rebel armies threatening our Empire.

Therefore, I hereby humbly ask the Magnaura to elect me as your new Megas Logothetes.

Savvas sits down.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I second the Edict 3.1!!

[Andres]

Savvas looks amused.

I admire your enthusiasm, young Senator Efstathios Laskaris, but there's no need to yell. Some of us might be getting a bit older, but we surely aren't deaf.

Savvas smiles encouraging at his younger colleague.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios blushed and says..

"I was not yelling. I was .. just .. coughing my throat .. there was something in it .. Yes .. that was it!"

Efstathios blushed even more ..

[Ramses II CP]

Vissarionas has returned to the Senate floor in time to hear much of the debate which is ongoing. When Efstathios volunteers to join the Crusade Vissa's face breaks into an open smile.

Well met my good man, and pleasure to hear your vow! I will be sailing in as much haste as possible, but rest assured that I will be open to coordinating our actions.

As for Cairo, I would honestly have said during my time there that even the Caliph was a man of peace and tolerance, but something must have brought about a change. The Christian quarter of Cairo was thriving, and other than matters of political power there was no discrimination to speak of in the city. The Muslims hold firm a prohibition on alcohol which I found to improve the general conditions in the city, though there were certain over-looked exceptions.

The people of Cairo are friendly and prosperous, the streets are of excellent quality, and trade of every imaginable sort passes through there. If I were forced to live among infidels I know of no better place to do so than Cairo.

Though it is not needed, I will second edict 3.1 as well, in the spirit of the Crusade!

Vissarionas sits down at the Order's table, quietly contemplative.

[Dafuge]

Stavrar walks into the Senate floor, and hears murmerings of the Edict 1.3. He hears enogh of it to form a brief idea of what it is about. Hearing that fellow Order member have seconded he makes his decision.

I also will second Edict 1.3

I also will join the Crusaders and will sail to the Holy Lands.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios sighs..

If this is true, then I hope that the city will not have the same destiny as Antioch had after it was captured.

He looks towards the Order's table..

But that is another story.

Turning to Stavrar he says..

It is Edict 3.1 actually we are talking about.

Saying this Efstathios smiles..

[Dafuge]

How could you say such a thing. The capture of Antioch was a simple mistake by our armies. They got ontop of themselves after the defeat and killed many, yes. But do not even dare think for how the Order remorsed. I moved into Antioch just after it had been taken and I know how the Order wept. Vissa even went into Egypt to search for redemption.

Blushes at his outburst but mainly at the fact how he managed to get his first vote wrong

[Privateerkev]

At the mention of Antioch, Makedonios raises.

Strator Efstathios,

If you wish to say something about Antioch, you can say it to me. The rest of the Order had nothing to do with it. I was the commander and therefore I am responsible.

We have done our best to repent and repay the people of that city. An Orthodox abbey now sits in the city and priests are preaching the Word. A school has been set up for the orphans and I have personally met with each and every family to educate them on the city services they are entitled to.

We can not take back that terrible day. But we can move forward, do good works, and ask for the Lord's forgiveness.

Also, if we will insist on discussing the sacking of Antioch, it would be neglectful to ignore that two people from your own House have exterminated whole settlements.

While that does not in any way excuse or condone what happened at Antioch, it would put things in a bit of perspective.

[Ferret]

Hypatios rises swiftly.

This is a lie, only Belgrade was exterminated and that was at the breach of an order, by a man who has not contacted the house for the entire past term and never really had any contact in the first place. He is only an official member due to a friendship with our past leader, his actions do not represent the Asteri as a whole. Check your sources before making accusations boy.

And besides, what does the past matter, we all make mistakes and yours is perfectly excusable, let us forget this and move on rather than insult each other.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raises an eyebrow at being called "boy".

Hypatios, I'd think you'd be the last man to speak on this subject. Wasn't Smyrna almost wiped out completely when you took the settlement? Oh sure you tried to cover it up, but rumors of your act have traveled far and wide.

I agree, we should move on and discuss the matters at hand. But if we insist on dragging out the past, then perhaps we should drag out the whole past and not just specific parts.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: At some point during the first term, Hypatios got the "mean leader" trait which leaves me to believe he exterminated Smyrna. Of course I could always go and check the save games and see if the population dropped by a substantial amount.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

If I have offended you or the Order then I deeply apologize.
No matter how good commander you are there are still moments where your men start thinking for themselves and do despicable things.
I do not blame you, Grandmaster, for what happened there. What I meant was that those men who join the crusade, commoners and the like, will not lose control over themselves and do not punish the people for the deeds of their Caliph.
I am sorry for bringing some painful old things back up.

Efstathios makes a pause...

But perhaps we should talk about something different. Like the current state of Empire?

[Ferret]

Just to clarify Smyrna was hardly even a settlement to begin with, I permitted my men to take anything valuable to pay for their own upkeep but only a few who resisited were killed, not the whole populace. Besides we now have a law to stop such monstrosities from occuring, now all the rebels-to-be and haters of the Empire are free to form armies like in Antioch and rise against us. I do not see why the killing of our enemies is such a bad thing, though from the vote I am obviously in the minority.

[Privateerkev]

Antypatos Hypatios brings up a very good point.

The legislation he speaks of has expired since it was only an Edict.

It is time to propose a new one.

Edict 3.2: No settlement can be exterminated. No Orthodox settlement can be sacked though sacking of Catholic or Muslim-held settlement is authorized. Crusade targets must be occupied.

This replaces the wise Edict 2.3, which has now expired, and adds in a proposal to prevent the very thing Efstathios is afraid of.

Makedonios gives a respectful head-nod to the Strator.

[Dafuge]

Stavrar steps up, slightly more nervous this time due to his much-up

I second Edict 3.2

[Zim]

Kosmas stands. I second Edict 3.2.

I would also like to announce my intention to join the crusade. The Christians of Egypt have already suffered many years of domination by caliphs, and this latest planned atrocity against them must be prevented.

[Andres]

Savvas stands up.

Gentlemen, please.

We have a war against the Seljuks, Catholic armies wandering through our Empire searching for personal glory in Jerusalem and on top of that, we have the moral obligation to bring law and order to Egypt.

Many things have happened in the past, but we have more pressing matters at hand now. If you insist on quarelling about things that have been, please do not do it during this important senate session.

Savvas turns towards Makedonios.

It doesn't happen often that I agree with the Grandmaster of the Order of St John, but the Edict he proposes speaks of wisdom.

Therefore, I second Edict 3.2. We are Romans, not barbarians!

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios nods to Comes Savvas.

To me, the matter is settled. Let us move forward. But if someone wishes to bring it back up, I will never shrink from discussing it. I will not run from my mistakes.

[woad&fangs]

I second Edict 3.2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ooc: gah, about 5 posts happened while I was making mine.

[Privateerkev]

*edit*

OOC:

nothing to see here...

[Ferret]

This is absurd, by letting them live we invite them to revolt as happened in Antioch, Sinop and Zagreb. I am sure the latter was occupied and that certainly did not stop the uprising. And using the fact that some of us are of roman descent is no excuse. If we do not kill the barbarians then they will eventually become recognised Byzantines. The Romans would have killed many of you for being barbarians, they did not let them live to fight again, and that is why they were so successful.

[Andres]

Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.

Corpses don't pay taxes.

Savvas shrugs.

[woad&fangs]

Solomon rises to speak

The easy path is rarely the righteous one. If this crusade is about helping our brothers in Christ then our actions should be pure.

[Privateerkev]

Those places were taken by small forces. It was difficult to hold those provinces and keep the people happy.

But I believe this will be different. A mighty army is assembling for Egypt. I already know of at least 4 generals that are going on Crusade and I am sure many more will join. That is already at least a full "stack" of troops.

[Ferret]

Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.

Corpses don't pay taxes.

Savvas shrugs.

No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.

[Ignoramus]

Caesar Ioannis Komnenos rises to address the Magnaura.

I must congratulate Markianos Ampelas for his steady hand during the past 15 years. He has served the empire and Basileus well.

I wish to announce to this assembled body that I seek to be elected to the office of Megas Logothetes.

Since the disaster of Manzikert, we have gradually regained the lost provinces and prestige torn from as at that fateful field. Now it is time to fully restore our lands. We have the men and the competent generals to be able to restore Anatolia, Armenia, and Georgia back to the Roman fold. My aim is to campaign hard against these infidel Turks, and then to restore to the light those poor souls who have become infidel.

Furthermore, I will seek to strengthen our relations with our neighbours. We cannot fight on two fronts yet, and we all know of the Frankish envy of our wealth.

The proposed crusade is a novel venture. I doubt it will do much more than prevent the Fatimids from seizing control of the whole of Palestine, but if it has God's blessing, then it shall have mine too.

Thank you, noble Senators.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[00jebus]

No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.

Although I fully agree with Savvos ek Militou, and the chivalry that doubtlessly inspied the proposed edict, what use would all those jobless foreigners be to the tax collectors?
When, in but a few years, any killed can be replaced, as Hypatios Machonios points out, by loyal citizens, whose places of work are built by money that would otherwise probably be used for sabotaging the empires efforts, whilst its trying to get the ingrates into work!

Also, why hold back our troops to such chivalry standards when our enemies may not?

To that end, I propose edict 3.2 be modified, to allow the sacking of rebellious orthadox settlements, and extermination of any settlement that rebels from the empire, or in response to any factions dishonourable acts against the empire (sabotage, extermination of our settlements if they are taken, suprise attacks or ambushes by irregulars etc)

This, I feel, should give commanders far more options than tying them down to a code of chivalry that is pointless following at all times, though I wish it was not the case, I am a realist, and see this is the best option. Until then, I cannot support edict 3.2