The Magnaura

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raises an eyebrow at being called "boy".

Hypatios, I'd think you'd be the last man to speak on this subject. Wasn't Smyrna almost wiped out completely when you took the settlement? Oh sure you tried to cover it up, but rumors of your act have traveled far and wide.

I agree, we should move on and discuss the matters at hand. But if we insist on dragging out the past, then perhaps we should drag out the whole past and not just specific parts.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: At some point during the first term, Hypatios got the "mean leader" trait which leaves me to believe he exterminated Smyrna. Of course I could always go and check the save games and see if the population dropped by a substantial amount.

[Ferret]

Just to clarify Smyrna was hardly even a settlement to begin with, I permitted my men to take anything valuable to pay for their own upkeep but only a few who resisited were killed, not the whole populace. Besides we now have a law to stop such monstrosities from occuring, now all the rebels-to-be and haters of the Empire are free to form armies like in Antioch and rise against us. I do not see why the killing of our enemies is such a bad thing, though from the vote I am obviously in the minority.

[Privateerkev]

Antypatos Hypatios brings up a very good point.

The legislation he speaks of has expired since it was only an Edict.

It is time to propose a new one.

Edict 3.2: No settlement can be exterminated. No Orthodox settlement can be sacked though sacking of Catholic or Muslim-held settlement is authorized. Crusade targets must be occupied.

This replaces the wise Edict 2.3, which has now expired, and adds in a proposal to prevent the very thing Efstathios is afraid of.

Makedonios gives a respectful head-nod to the Strator.

[Dafuge]

Stavrar steps up, slightly more nervous this time due to his much-up

I second Edict 3.2

[Zim]

Kosmas stands. I second Edict 3.2.

I would also like to announce my intention to join the crusade. The Christians of Egypt have already suffered many years of domination by caliphs, and this latest planned atrocity against them must be prevented.

[Andres]

Savvas stands up.

Gentlemen, please.

We have a war against the Seljuks, Catholic armies wandering through our Empire searching for personal glory in Jerusalem and on top of that, we have the moral obligation to bring law and order to Egypt.

Many things have happened in the past, but we have more pressing matters at hand now. If you insist on quarelling about things that have been, please do not do it during this important senate session.

Savvas turns towards Makedonios.

It doesn't happen often that I agree with the Grandmaster of the Order of St John, but the Edict he proposes speaks of wisdom.

Therefore, I second Edict 3.2. We are Romans, not barbarians!

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios nods to Comes Savvas.

To me, the matter is settled. Let us move forward. But if someone wishes to bring it back up, I will never shrink from discussing it. I will not run from my mistakes.

[woad&fangs]

I second Edict 3.2

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ooc: gah, about 5 posts happened while I was making mine.

[Privateerkev]

*edit*

OOC:

nothing to see here...

[Ferret]

This is absurd, by letting them live we invite them to revolt as happened in Antioch, Sinop and Zagreb. I am sure the latter was occupied and that certainly did not stop the uprising. And using the fact that some of us are of roman descent is no excuse. If we do not kill the barbarians then they will eventually become recognised Byzantines. The Romans would have killed many of you for being barbarians, they did not let them live to fight again, and that is why they were so successful.

[Andres]

Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.

Corpses don't pay taxes.

Savvas shrugs.

[Ferret]

Dear Hypatios Machonios, if acting like humans instead of animals is not one of your main concerns, then try looking at it this way: the more people we kill, the less potential taxpayers we keep.

Corpses don't pay taxes.

Savvas shrugs.

No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.

[Ignoramus]

Caesar Ioannis Komnenos rises to address the Magnaura.

I must congratulate Markianos Ampelas for his steady hand during the past 15 years. He has served the empire and Basileus well.

I wish to announce to this assembled body that I seek to be elected to the office of Megas Logothetes.

Since the disaster of Manzikert, we have gradually regained the lost provinces and prestige torn from as at that fateful field. Now it is time to fully restore our lands. We have the men and the competent generals to be able to restore Anatolia, Armenia, and Georgia back to the Roman fold. My aim is to campaign hard against these infidel Turks, and then to restore to the light those poor souls who have become infidel.

Furthermore, I will seek to strengthen our relations with our neighbours. We cannot fight on two fronts yet, and we all know of the Frankish envy of our wealth.

The proposed crusade is a novel venture. I doubt it will do much more than prevent the Fatimids from seizing control of the whole of Palestine, but if it has God's blessing, then it shall have mine too.

Thank you, noble Senators.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[00jebus]

No but we get all the money of those people, most of which would never be paid as taxes. Besides we would replace them with lawful citizens of the Empire who would pay all their taxes and more, unlike the foreigners who would do their utmost to avoid them.

Although I fully agree with Savvos ek Militou, and the chivalry that doubtlessly inspied the proposed edict, what use would all those jobless foreigners be to the tax collectors?
When, in but a few years, any killed can be replaced, as Hypatios Machonios points out, by loyal citizens, whose places of work are built by money that would otherwise probably be used for sabotaging the empires efforts, whilst its trying to get the ingrates into work!

Also, why hold back our troops to such chivalry standards when our enemies may not?

To that end, I propose edict 3.2 be modified, to allow the sacking of rebellious orthadox settlements, and extermination of any settlement that rebels from the empire, or in response to any factions dishonourable acts against the empire (sabotage, extermination of our settlements if they are taken, suprise attacks or ambushes by irregulars etc)

This, I feel, should give commanders far more options than tying them down to a code of chivalry that is pointless following at all times, though I wish it was not the case, I am a realist, and see this is the best option. Until then, I cannot support edict 3.2

[woad&fangs]

Solomon rises to speak

The easy path is rarely the righteous one. If this crusade is about helping our brothers in Christ then our actions should be pure.

[Privateerkev]

Those places were taken by small forces. It was difficult to hold those provinces and keep the people happy.

But I believe this will be different. A mighty army is assembling for Egypt. I already know of at least 4 generals that are going on Crusade and I am sure many more will join. That is already at least a full "stack" of troops.