The Magnaura

[AussieGiant]

Standing Apionnas speaks:

I second CA 3.1

I find it highly irregular that we can be so mortified with Orthodox deaths inflicted, POTENTIALLY, by the Caliph, yet we have just tabled a law in which sacking Arabic provinces is allowed.

If what the Caliph has done is in fact confirmed, then he should be condemned by this Chamber, but equally we should be able to look at ourselves first and assess how our own behaviour can be viewed by those not of our mind.

The decisions of war and conquest should not be authorised or mandated by the clergy of any nation. Some of you have started the objective assessment of what is actually needed to survive and win this so called crusade. I commend these men, because it will not be faith, or zeal that feeds, cloths, arms and trains men for war...that is the job of generals.

It is a short spanning empire that allows it nose to be lead by hands not of it's own!!

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios turns to Apionnas.

I abhor any sacking. But politcal reality is what it is. I believe it would be easier to simply pass the same legislation that we've already passed before, rather than try to pass new and more restrictive legislation. Edict 3.2 is simply a renewal of Edict 2.3 with the added protection for Crusade targets.

As for the sacking of Muslim targets, even though it is allowed in Edict 3.2, I assure you it is forbidden among the men of the Order. Any general in the Order who attempts to use Edict 3.2 as an excuse will find himself in a spot of trouble. Therefore, I do not believe that the sacking provision if 3.2 will lead to a dramatic increase in the sacking of Muslim settlements. Everyone bordering Muslim settlements has shown restraint in this matter.

The Caesar's House has occupied every settlement it has taken. I trust the men leading Asteri's armies will show mercy to the Turkish people they conquer. Priests are wandering Turkish lands as we speak to spread the Word and ensure the armies of Asteri are welcomed more warmly. The Crusade Targets will be occupied. And the rest of the Muslim lands are bordered by the Order. And I have already given my assurances on that matter. Aleppo was peacefully occupied and Adana will follow in just a few short weeks.

If I thought a general "no sacking" edict could pass in this chamber, I would propose it. But, unfortunately, I am not so hopeful. So, I propose a renewal of an edict that is less than perfect. But it is better than nothing. And practically, I seriously doubt there will be the sacking of Muslim settlements for reasons I have already laid out.

[AussieGiant]

Apionnas inclines his head towards Makedonios as he speaks.

Your words are convincing my lord.

Please note, I make my statements not out of any belief that they be necessarily right or wrong, but simply as a person who is able to very easily place myself in the position of how certain other nations can view us.

Before making his next remark Apionnas casts his eyes across the whole chamber.

However the legislation stands as it is worded. Therefore it identifies Muslims specifically as a collection of nations that can be sacked by this Empire. I tell you now that this is more than enough for 'others' to see our opinion on the matter.

YET, here we are acting with shock and outrage, because word has reached us, that another nation, may, kill Orthodox and Catholic lives.

Pausing, he places a clenched mailed glove forcefully on the bench in front of him.

In fact what WE have decided to do is call a Crusade against that nation for those alleged actions.

Some may wonder just who is governing this Empire if such a response is deemed rational by this body of men.

[Privateerkev]

Let us not equate what the Caliph is doing with "sacking".

Sacking is the appropriation of wealth from a settlement that tends to lead in the deaths of those who guard their own wealth. While abhorant, it is not what the Caliph has ordered.

According to His Eminence, the Caliph has ordered the extermination of every Christian man, woman, and child in Cairo. This isn't killing those in the name of plunder. This is the most brutal form of murder. Even those who engage in sacking tend to avoid killing women and children.

Furthermore, the Caliph is going to destroy our ancient Holy sites. This is a direct attack on our Faith.

So, edict 3.2 is not a hypocritical case of supporting what we are also condemning. It is supporting what I believe to be evil, but if there is a scale of such matters, it is a "lesser evil" than what the Caliph is planning.

And others keep bringing up that the Caliph has not yet done these things as some sort of excuse for moderation. Should we wait until he slaughters every Christian woman, man, and child before we act?

I trust the man who gathered this information. And I trust His Eminence to analyze that information and then call us to action. If they say this is about to happen, then I believe it is about to happen.

[AussieGiant]

So be it Senator Makedonios.

Let us see how things develop.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

If we could continue and leave Crusade where it is then...

Isn't there really no other important things to discuss??

Efstathios looks around with surprise...

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raises an eyebrow when Methodios speaks. He quickly looks over the parchment every senator received decribing CA 3.1.

Senator Methodios is right. It does restrict the titles to non-family members. So, according to the Caesar's CA, you can't be a family member, and you don't have to hold land. So basically, the lowest ranking among us can gain as much automatic influence as someone who worked hard during a whole Megas term.

My proposed amendment to CA 3.1 would eliminate both of these problems. Any person, family member or not, could have these titles. And they would have to have land to gain the influence from it. My amendment would not limit the Emperor from giving titles to Strators. But they would not get the "stat influence" until they were a Domestikos.

Which seems only proper.