Random thought: Forgiveness

[Fragony]

Spawned by AdrianII's America threat and don't ask me why because I don't know that's just how it works.

We often hear about what a great thing it is to forgive, but isn't someone who is able to forgive the most dangerous person to have around, if he can forgive what was done to him he could also forgive what was done to you, and probably in a much shorter timespan. Wouldn't it be better if we all hold on to our grudges, a little bit of hostility for the better of all.

[Don Corleone]

The forgiveness ethic I believe comes from Jesus Christ directly, and it's one of the few unique theological tenets of Christianity. That being said, very few Christians actually attain the level of spiritual development to practice it on the scale Jesus said was required.

Your point is that forgiving people are careless people, I'm guessing? I suppose, yes they are. The idea is that through understanding and forgiveness, caution will become obsolete. I'm not entirely certain how to reconcicle what Jesus said not only with my own common sense, but some of His own statements which appear to be self-contradictory.

For example, there is the famous 'unforgivable sin' he speaks of which is generally interpreted to mean somebody who knows better attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to other sources (the devil, science, random chance, etcetera). And he warns his followers if they ever cause somebody to turn away from their Christian calling, it would be better for them if they had never been born (something judgemental priests and ministers would do well to heed). And he warns all of us that if we harm children, the best thing we could do for ourselves is to tie a millstone around our neck and jump in a lake, because that's better than anything he'll have in store for us.

So the question becomes, what did he mean with "7 times 70 times" and what exactly does the forgiveness ethic require.

I personally think it means an openness to forgiveness towards others and for ourselves and a capacity to forgive that should in practice be limitless. I don't think the merit is in just pretending that nothing bothers us, but that should others seek forgiveness, we must be prepared to grant it, no matter what our personal thoughts on the matter are.

[Fragony]

Your point is that forgiving people are careless people, I'm guessing? I suppose, yes they are. The idea is that through understanding and forgiveness, caution will become obsolete. I'm not entirely certain how to reconcicle what Jesus said not only with my own common sense, but some of His own statements which appear to be self-contradictory..

Was in no way attacking christianity, just why forgiving is such a good thing. What if it isn't, things only happen because someone allows them to happen at some point, and what is forgiven today will be forgiven tommorow, isn't a permanent state of hostility preferable. How that would apply on anything and most of all complex issues such as politics and war I wouldn't know just wanted to throw it in.

[Don Corleone]

I wasn't trying to be defensive on behalf of Christianity. I just don't see many other ethical systems that hold 'forgiveness' itself up as a final good, in and of itself. No worries there.

And you're right. Americans like to call their country a "Christian nation", but clearly, we've done some pretty vengeful things. The Spanish American War, even if you believe the Maine was detonated by the Spanish (and I don't) springs to mind.

And I don't think American foreign policy is wrong. If the Japanese had come to the White House on Dec 7th, 1941 and said "Uh, we got carried away. Please forgive us", should we have? Had we, wouldn't we be under their control by now?

*Speaking of which, there's an urban legend in American history circles that due to a miscommunication and secrecy on the part of the Japanese military, even with its own diplomatic corps, the ambassador to the US delivered their declaration of war several hours after the first telegraphs of the attack were arriving from Hawaii. Does anyone know the veracity of such claims?

[Fragony]

And you're right. Americans like to call their country a "Christian nation", but clearly, we've done some pretty vengeful things. The Spanish American War, even if you believe the Maine was detonated by the Spanish (and I don't) springs to mind.

And I don't think American foreign policy is wrong. If the Japanese had come to the White House on Dec 7th, 1941 and said "Uh, we got carried away. Please forgive us", should we have? Had we, wouldn't we be under their control by now?

Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

[Don Corleone]

Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

Right, I'm just using my own country's history as they're yardsticks I'm familiar with, not because I thought you were pointing the finger at us.

I understand what you're saying, that isn't it better to 'clear the air' then to allow problems to fester. I'm not certain where I stand on that. One thing I am pretty sure of... the ideal of forgiveness cannot simply be a matter of one party repeatedly accepting insults and injury from another party without some manner of redress.

In my mind, effective forgiveness by the victim has a prerequirement of a desire for forgiveness by the offender. What good does it do to forgive somebody who doesn't what you think about they did?

[Husar]

So basically when I wait in line and someone bumps into me, says "oh, sorry" and I say "hey, it's okay, no problem" that's worse than making a big scene, calling the police or beating her/him up?

Okay, maybe you wouldn't apply it to accidental stuff, but even then, that I can forgive others does in no way mean that I will forgive them on the spot or think that their deeds should not have consequences, especially if they had severe consequences for others.

[Don Corleone]

So basically when I wait in line and someone bumps into me, says "oh, sorry" and I say "hey, it's okay, no problem" that's worse than making a big scene, calling the police or beating her/him up?

Okay, maybe you wouldn't apply it to accidental stuff, but even then, that I can forgive others does in no way mean that I will forgive them on the spot or think that their deeds should not have consequences, especially if they had severe consequences for others.

Well, one important qualifier is the detail that the oaf paused to say "oh, sorry". I think Fragony's questioning what if the guy glared at you and just shoved ahead of you in line, would it be wise to just 'forgive him' and let him get away with it. Is that correct, Fragony?

[Viking]

Spawned by AdrianII's America threat and don't ask me why because I don't know that's just how it works.

We often hear about what a great thing it is to forgive, but isn't someone who is able to forgive the most dangerous person to have around, if he can forgive what was done to him he could also forgive what was done to you, and probably in a much shorter timespan. Wouldn't it be better if we all hold on to our grudges, a little bit of hostility for the better of all.

When you to consider to forgive, something already happened. Forgiving is not the same as not reacting when something bad happens. Being able to forgive merely means that the whole world will not turn blind, to put it like Ghandi.

[Strike For The South]

A grudge will kill you on the inside. It is much eaiser to forgive and smile. Grudges are simply peolpes egos getting in the way youre a big tough guy if you can hold a grudge but if it was good enough for Jesus it was good enough for me.

I do not find puhnishment and forgivness synonmus 2 different things.