Random thought: Forgiveness

[Fragony]

And you're right. Americans like to call their country a "Christian nation", but clearly, we've done some pretty vengeful things. The Spanish American War, even if you believe the Maine was detonated by the Spanish (and I don't) springs to mind.

And I don't think American foreign policy is wrong. If the Japanese had come to the White House on Dec 7th, 1941 and said "Uh, we got carried away. Please forgive us", should we have? Had we, wouldn't we be under their control by now?

Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

[Don Corleone]

Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

Right, I'm just using my own country's history as they're yardsticks I'm familiar with, not because I thought you were pointing the finger at us.

I understand what you're saying, that isn't it better to 'clear the air' then to allow problems to fester. I'm not certain where I stand on that. One thing I am pretty sure of... the ideal of forgiveness cannot simply be a matter of one party repeatedly accepting insults and injury from another party without some manner of redress.

In my mind, effective forgiveness by the victim has a prerequirement of a desire for forgiveness by the offender. What good does it do to forgive somebody who doesn't what you think about they did?

[Beirut]

Grudges are like women; find the right one and hold on to it for as long as possible.

It will keep you warm.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Caesar forgave Brutus (and Cassius). It didn't go well for him. Mithradates the Great forgave his son Pharnaces, again he died a horrible death. Anyone else starting to notice a pattern here?

Seriously, it depends on the magnitude of the original transgression. Small things should be easily forgiven, large things (Ie: rebellion, murder, war, etc.) not so easily, or even not forgiven at all.

With the Christian angle its actually quite interesting to note that, as Don Corleone mentioned, very few religions, at least as far as I know, have such a major emphasis on forgiveness (although I believe Buddhism does). Please feel free to correct me on this.

As far as the theology of it goes I believe that Jesus took all the blame for humanity's sins, and thus suffered for it, and then recieved forgiveness for said sins, from God? Jesus also forgave humanity for putting him throught he suffering.

More importantly, and I believe that nobody so far has mentioned this, but penance and remorse are also required before eternal forgiveness can be given.

I'd like to point out at this point that I am an Atheist and thus may be completely wrong.

It is also important to note, that just because a dominant religion accepts these viewpoints, doesn't mean that the majority of people follow them.

For myself, I believe forgiveness should be earned rather than given freely, depending on, as I've said, the magnitude of the transgression.

[Husar]

Well, what I also tried to say was you can forgive someone, yet have her/him go through a bit or a bit more of punishment. I also learned that as a christian, God will forgive you but that does not mean that he will never punish you simply because you learn from punishment. Similarly you could forgive the murderer of your daughter for example yet let him stay in prison so he learns his lecture. I don't really think Jesus ever wanted his followers to make fools of themselves either, he was quite enraged himself when he cleaned the temple of those moneylenders etc. inside it but that does not mean he couldn't forgive them.

Well, that's how I see it.

What happens when you keep a grudge are such stupid things as medieval family feuds etc.

[macsen rufus]

IMHO everyone is missing the whole point of forgiveness -- it is not about the offender, but the forgiver.

An act of forgiveness does not say "You have offended me, but I forgive you, get on with your life", rather "I have been offended against, but I will not carry the burden of hatred and hence get on with MY life". Assuming a religious belief, we could also add "and I trust God to deal with you". Forgiveness is a victim-release act, not a perpetrator-release act. Just letting someone off punishment is not forgiveness.

People who cannot forgive, cannot move on, and cannot recover. They fester and amplify the actual hurt they have suffered, and often damage their own nature in doing so. I believe this is where the spiritual value of forgiveness lies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

IMHO everyone is missing the whole point of forgiveness -- it is not about the offender, but the forgiver.

An act of forgiveness does not say "You have offended me, but I forgive you, get on with your life", rather "I have been offended against, but I will not carry the burden of hatred and hence get on with MY life". Assuming a religious belief, we could also add "and I trust God to deal with you". Forgiveness is a victim-release act, not a perpetrator-release act. Just letting someone off punishment is not forgiveness.

People who cannot forgive, cannot move on, and cannot recover. They fester and amplify the actual hurt they have suffered, and often damage their own nature in doing so. I believe this is where the spiritual value of forgiveness lies.

Thanks, you beat me to it. Saved my wrists from typing. I would add though that without forgiveness punishment becomes merely revenge.