U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[Lemur]

And neither Lemur, nor Koga, nor any of the other usual defenders jump up to proclaim its a lie.

That's right, Don, you've finally hit on the dirty secret of the Org. If somebody says something -- anything -- and it isn't disputed within a given time frame, it becomes true. Just like that. Why, just a few months ago I slipped in a line about how we actually have three moons, which is how we wound up with all three of those things you see in the sky.

Now that you know about this power, please use it wisely.

[Xiahou]

That's what we've been doing since 1916. If you want to abolish the progressive income tax in favor of some radical reform, then make that argument.

I already did that, pages ago. All I did now was again point out that making higher earners pay an even higher percentage of income taxes than they already do is not about making them pay their fair share. That's just a bogus emotional argument used to justify it. It's about taking more from the rich, and in Obama's plan, literally giving it to others. You can talk about how great an idea you think that is, but don't try to say that soaking them for even more to fund government programs and give others tax credits is is making them pay their fair share.

Interesting. Crazed Rabbit said about 12 hours ago that the Democrats in Congress are planning on transferring everyone's 401k accounts into a managed Democrat government fund. And neither Lemur, nor Koga, nor any of the other usual defenders jump up to proclaim its a lie.

So I guess Jillian, Allison Mrs. Corleone and I should kiss the retirement account goodbye?

That's a shockingly stupid plan that they've put forth.

[LittleGrizzly]

I already did that, pages ago. All I did now was again point out that making higher earners pay an even higher percentage of income taxes than they already do is not about making them pay their fair share. That's just a bogus emotional argument used to justify it. It's about taking more from the rich, and in Obama's plan, literally giving it to others.

I think it fair because america has helped them get where they are, so they should help america help other americans, what could be fairer than that ?

Why is it that everyone assumes the dems are going to raise our taxes somehow, its almost like a siege mentality... koga was spot on IMO.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, well, seriously asking for a moment...

Are the Democrats planning on seizing 401k accounts? I noticed that despite your sarcasm, neither of you directly addressed the question.

[LittleGrizzly]

I did have a look for some articles on it but a got a few pages of mainly blog results and the link, most either said steal or confisicate... meaning they were either biased or sensitionalist... i accept neither... i was for something from a more known source (i don't know many...)

[Lemur]

If there were a movement afoot to "seize" 401k accounts (and I'd like to know what is meant by that word, thanks very much) it would be news. Big news. The costs involved, depending on what is meant by "seize," could be mind-boggling.

I guess it's possible some Dems are batting around some goofy ideas, but it seems rather more likely that this is a fabricated story meant to scare people twelve days or so from the 2008 election. Occam's Razor cuts this one up pretty quick.

[LittleGrizzly]

but it seems rather more likely that this is a fabricated story meant to scare people twelve days or so from the 2008 election.

Thats what i figured, from the sounds of its not a good idea, unless the economys going to be destroyed.... maybe democrats are trying to protect people incase of another republican presidency

[Xiahou]

Okay, well, seriously asking for a moment...

Are the Democrats planning on seizing 401k accounts? I noticed that despite your sarcasm, neither of you directly addressed the question.

I think its too soon to call it "planning". Some economist they invited to testify before congress suggested the plan.

House Democrats recently invited Teresa Ghilarducci, a professor at the New School of Social Research, to testify before a subcommittee on her idea to eliminate the preferential tax treatment of the popular retirement plans. In place of 401(k) plans, she would have workers transfer their dough into government-created "guaranteed retirement accounts" for every worker. The government would deposit $600 (inflation indexed) every year into the GRAs. Each worker would also have to save 5 percent of pay into the accounts, to which the government would pay a measly 3 percent return. Rep. Jim McDermott, a Democrat from Washington and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee's Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, said that since "the savings rate isn't going up for the investment of $80 billion [in 401(k) tax breaks], we have to start to think about whether or not we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that's not generating what we now say it should."

[Don Corleone]

If there were a movement afoot to "seize" 401k accounts (and I'd like to know what is meant by that word, thanks very much) it would be news. Big news. The costs involved, depending on what is meant by "seize," could be mind-boggling.

I guess it's possible some Dems are batting around some goofy ideas, but it seems rather more likely that this is a fabricated story meant to scare people twelve days or so from the 2008 election. Occam's Razor cuts this one up pretty quick.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what to think. I have done some research into this today, and from what I understand, there's two scenarios.

The most eggregious, and therefore, the least likely, is that Democrats are going to nationalize 401k accounts outright, and put the money into the social security trust fund. Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't hear any denials, from Obama, from Chris Dodd, nor from folks who know the Democrat party lines, like yourself or Koga.

The other version, which seems more likely, is that all tax shelter benefits to contributing to a 401k, both for the individual and for the company, will be ended.

Neither is very pallatable, but I am curious... is this the "We're going to get 'em " moment that comes out on DailyKos or in your daily Obamagram? Seriously. If you guys are going to seize my 401k account, or end the tax protections, I need to start doing the math on other retirement plans, including a Hemmingy-esque stash of scotch and a remote cabin for the day I can't pay my own way anymore.

[m52nickerson]

I already did that, pages ago. All I did now was again point out that making higher earners pay an even higher percentage of income taxes than they already do is not about making them pay their fair share. That's just a bogus emotional argument used to justify it. It's about taking more from the rich, and in Obama's plan, literally giving it to others. You can talk about how great an idea you think that is, but don't try to say that soaking them for even more to fund government programs and give others tax credits is is making them pay their fair share.

It's not fair! My two year old uses that argument.

Lets look at all this. We could cut taxes across the board. The problems with that are two fold.

One, you can't afford to give as much of a cut to middle and lower income. Why is that important? It is because they are you largest groups, and the ones that drive the economy. If they have extra money thye but more products or services, which in turn give more profits to buisnesses and will lead to more employment to keep up with new business. Businesses that start to show profits attracts investors.

Two, a cut across the board also cut federal revenue. That will result in a large deficit or cuts in programs. I will also affect millions of federal employees, which are consumers.

Next we could go to a flat tax. Well to do that we will have to raise that % on the lower income class to set a % to keep revenue near it's current level. That would take money out of consumers, bad for buisnesses and the economy. We could make the flat tax % near what the lowest tax bracket is. That will cut federal revenue to drastically low levels.

We could eliminate taxes all together, good for the economy until our infrastructure total breaks down.

So, we have Obama's plan. It allows the middle and lower income classes keep more of there money, or gives them a ~$1000 tax credit. That helps the economy by giving your consumer base spending power. The consumer drives the economy.

It also allows federal revenue to stay very near it's current level, so you avoid many problems here.


Now what about cutting taxes for corporations so they can create jobs? Do companies hire more people just because they have more money? NO. They hire more people to keep up with an increase in business, which you can't get without at stronger consumer base.

What about capital gains tax cuts to entice investors? Since when do investors put money into a business that does not have customers, and even if some do invest, the business still will not hire more people just because they have more capital.

So, the rich or well to do or what ever you want to call the top earners may cry about paying more taxes, but they will cry more when the lower income classes fail and they drag them down with them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Clinton admin floated a trial balloon about a one-time 15% levy on all 401ks with the revenue generated earmarked solely for social security and medicare/medicaid.

The trial balloon fizzled quickly.

No idea if anyone is harboring thoughts along those lines at present.

[Lemur]

Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't hear any denials, from Obama, from Chris Dodd, nor from folks who know the Democrat party lines, like yourself or Koga.

And here we are, come full circle, back to the "if you aren't denying it it must be true" portion of our program. I hear no prominent politician has denied that they're taking orders from a giant insect hive-mind, either. Does that make it true?

The other version, which seems more likely, is that all tax shelter benefits to contributing to a 401k, both for the individual and for the company, will be ended.

Hey, I want to play this game too! I hear that John McCain plans to kill every kitten in the United States. There was a rumor that he planned to bathe in their blood, but I found that unbelievable. So I'm guessing the other version, which seems more likely, is that all kittens will be rounded up and killed.

If nobody can show me authoritative proof that John McCain isn't planning to kill all kittens, I will consider it a proven fact.

[CrossLOPER]

Is there going to be another poll in this thread? There's not that much time left.

[CountArach]

Here's another poll for the thread.

[Tribesman]

Is there going to be another poll in this thread?

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/redpoll/

[Don Corleone]

And here we are, come full circle, back to the "if you aren't denying it it must be true" portion of our program. I hear no prominent politician has denied that they're taking orders from a giant insect hive-mind, either. Does that make it true?


Hey, I want to play this game too! I hear that John McCain plans to kill every kitten in the United States. There was a rumor that he planned to bathe in their blood, but I found that unbelievable. So I'm guessing the other version, which seems more likely, is that all kittens will be rounded up and killed.

If nobody can show me authoritative proof that John McCain isn't planning to kill all kittens, I will consider it a proven fact.

Here's one story...

and here's number two...

I'll keep looking for more, but it looks as though Democrats are currently just "considering" doing it, they haven't started the legislation in motion yet. Still, holding hearings to discuss the best way to seize retirement accounts is scary enough for me...

[Don Corleone]

And for the trifecta, here it is confirmed in the Wall Street Journal.

So, either only people making 250K a year or more contribute to their 401Ks, or the Democrats aren't planning on limiting themselves to the upper 5% of the uber-rich. If you have a 401K account, get ready to drop your shorts and grab your ankles. But remember, its your duty as a citizen...

So, the Democrats are proposing ending tax deferred status for 401K contributions and forcing everyone to contribute to a government mandated retirement account that only will pay 3%, regardless of market conditions or inflation. If you die early, the government seizes half of your assets.

I'm moving to Singapore.

[InsaneApache]

I havn't had time to trawl through the 130 odd replies, so forgive me if this has been shown earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igFiyyFTF88

Scary stuff. I liked the bit about abandoning waterboarding and just throwing them in a pond instead.

[Tribesman]

So, the Democrats are proposing ending tax deferred status for 401K contributions and forcing everyone to contribute to a government mandated retirement account that only will pay 3%, regardless of market conditions or inflation. If you die early, the government seizes half of your assets.

Are they ?
That story looks like two people are named as being on a board that is looking at proposals and may consider some aspects of proposals put to the board by someone else ...which has by magic transformed into the democrats are going to impliment all this womans proposals as soon as they get the chance .
BTW Don did you notice that two of that trifecta are by the same journalist and the third is a repeat take of that journalists piece . So does that make your trifecta a fect one trick pony that came outside the field ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igFiyyFTF88

Scary stuff. I liked the bit about abandoning waterboarding and just throwing them in a pond instead.

Bloody hell. This pastor's sermons in Palin's church make reverend Wright's sermons seem like moderate all-American gatherings by comparison.

A Kenyan anti-witchcraft pastor urging Alaskans to donate for Sarah Palin - is this why the Republican war machine has been laying so remarkably low over Wright all this time?

(Okay, it's much ado about nothing, but fun nonetheless.)

I'm moving to Singapore.

No you won't. Singapore has a centrally planned retirement scheme. Communist by American standards.

Strangely, Singapore's retirerees live a dignified old age. Whereas many American retirees are struggling to pay for their medicines.

[Big_John]

original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJmqCKtJnxM

2008 version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq8Uc5BFogE

[Lemur]

Off The Rails, Part 2

Focus on Family has a letter they're sending around that is from the future! That's right, a Christian in 2012 writes to tell us how America is ruined by an Obama presidency. It's great stuff: The Boy Scouts get outlawed, Christianity gets persecuted and Obama takes everyone's guns away. Nothing about compulsory abortions, but I haven't read the whole thing yet. Samples:

• A 6-3 liberal majority Supreme Court that results in rulings like one making gay marriage the law of the land and another forcing the Boy Scouts to "hire homosexual scoutmasters and allow them to sleep in tents with young boys." (In the imagined scenario, The Boy Scouts choose to disband rather than obey).
• A series of domestic and international disasters based on Obama's "reluctance to send troops overseas." That includes terrorist attacks on U.S. soil that kill hundreds, Russia occupying the Baltic states and Eastern European countries including Poland and the Czech Republic, and al-Qaida overwhelming Iraq.
• Nationalized health care with long lines for surgery and no access to hospitals for people over 80.

If that doesn't strike you as sufficiently hysterical, how about Life As We Know It Will End If Obama Is Elected? Does that qualify as panties-in-serious-twist syndrome?

Lastly, some fundie group has put out a series of seven videos titled 7 Reasons Barack Obama is not a Christian.

P.S.: Did you know that the reason some people don't approve of Sarah Palin is that they're all conflicted about their own abortions? It's true, I read it at National Review.

Seeing the Palin family, in a very visible public forum, with an uncompromising and public pro life philosophy arouses deeply repressed feelings in post abortive parents, as well as media members, counselors, health care professionals, politicians and others who promote abortion rights, especially the abortion of children with challenges such as Down Syndrome. These powerful repressed feelings of grief, guilt and shame can be deflected from the source of the wound (i.e., abortion) and projected onto an often uncharitable focus upon the trigger of these painful emotions…the Palin family.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A rundown on the tax plans from the WSJ.

Key bits, thought the whole article is full of info:

Mr. Obama would roll back the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for taxpayers in the top two brackets, raising the top two marginal rates of income tax to 36% and 39.6% from 33% and 35%. The 33% rate begins to hit this year at incomes of $164,550 for an individual and $200,300 for joint filers. Mr. Obama claims no "working families" earning less than $250,000 would pay more in taxes, but that's because he defines income more broadly than the taxable income line on the IRS form. If you're an individual with taxable income of $164,550, you will pay more taxes.

...

On corporate taxes, the Obama campaign has proposed to eliminate "loopholes" for oil and gas companies and rewrite the rules for how multinational corporations are taxed. In particular, he has proposed to treat foreign-source income the same as income earned domestically -- which means subjecting all income earned by American companies around the world to the 35% U.S. corporate rate, which is the world's second-highest. He is also promising a "windfall profits" tax on oil companies.

Goodbye American competitiveness.

CR

[LittleGrizzly]

subjecting all income earned by American companies around the world to the 35% U.S. corporate rate, which is the world's second-highest.

Something quite surprising, i would have expected quite a few european countries to have higher rates, or are the other company taxes which level this out more ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Amazing, isn't it? I don't know about other taxes in Europe, but I've heard the average corporate rate is 25%. I believe its 12.5% in Ireland.

CR

[Lemur]

Finally, a ticket I can get behind:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Amazing, isn't it? I don't know about other taxes in Europe, but I've heard the average corporate rate is 25%. I believe its 12.5% in Ireland.

CR

Gah! I am not going to post again about tax loopholes or Irish tax havens that provide American companies the opportunity to evade taxes. I'll only be called an imperialist EU Supertstate socialist again.
[/sulking]

For my EU posters: maybe it would be a good idea to raise corporate tax levels to the level of such commie hotbeds as the US, eh? Rather than engaging in a Euro contest to see who'll bend over backwards the most for international capital.

[Strike For The South]

Palin going "rouge"

As I read this all that pops in my head is this.

Shoot Her

[Crazed Rabbit]

Follow up on the 'victim' who claimed she was attacked:
Turns out she's only a victim of herself.



CR

[Marshal Murat]

CR: Yes, we know I think it was two pages past that this was brought up.

Evidently someone asked some tough questions of Biden about Obama.