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Thread: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

  1. #1471
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Here's another one of them liberal blogs that gets Xiahou's dander up. Good advice, though, for some of the conservatives on this board who like to bang on about the "empty suit."

    Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

    Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...

    The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far ...
    So the argument in favor of Obama's lack of experience is that we gave him a chance and he exceeded our expectations? Don't you think it would make sense to extend the same courtesy to Sarah Palin, since she is only going for the number 2 slot? I was in the pro-Obama camp because I recognized his talent and hated Clinton. I just think Palin has some serious talent and maybe we should wait for a few more speeches before we go into onslaught mode against her, Lemur. You really haven't given her a chance at all for such a fair minded guy.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-01-2008 at 21:57.
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  2. #1472
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Here is a pretty fair article about what McCain is doing. It's like Jay Cost is in my brain and laying out my arguments better than I ever could...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What the Heck is McCain Up To?
    By Jay Cost
    Link

    That seems to be the question this Labor Day. The Palin pick surprised everybody, and the reaction to it has not been moderate. Analysts tend either to be pleased or pissed.

    I want to move beyond their back-and-forth. Too much of it seems to depend implicitly upon whether picking Palin makes McCain a hypocrite, given his attacks on Obama. I don't think that is a particularly helpful discussion, as everybody will probably answer it based upon which candidate they had been supporting. So, in an effort to analyze the Palin pick without getting into the scrum, I offer a few considerations.

    First, this pick is not a Hail Mary pass, as was Bob Dole's selection of Jack Kemp. Kemp fit on a Dole ticket as well as Ronald Reagan would have fit on Gerald Ford's '76 ticket. Unlike the '96 ticket, there is a natural affinity between McCain and Palin. Both stand athwart the same forces in their party, both do so for the professed sake of the public interest, and so both are insurgents. Palin challenged the powers that be in the Alaska Republican Party. McCain challenged the powers of the national GOP.

    In other words, Palin appears to be a younger, female version of John McCain. She embodies his best qualities. This is why the pick cannot be dismissed as mere pandering. There are compelling reasons to pick Palin in addition to her being a woman. Was her gender a factor? Sure, but I don't think it was the principal factor. If it were, he would have gone for Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorina, Kay Bailey Hutchison, or others.

    In fact, of all the candidates mentioned at various points in time for McCain, only Bobby Jindal fits the maverick/reformer image as well as Sarah Palin. This is why Jack Kelly - an incisive columnist at my hometown paper and certainly no fan of identity politics - was trumpeting her back in June.

    Second, the issue of Palin's qualifications is complicated. The left is enthusiastically attacking her credentials. The right is just as enthusiastic in its defense. There's no clear-cut winner here. If she were clearly unqualified, McCain would not have selected her. If she were clearly qualified, she probably would have been the GOP's presidential nominee.

    Here's my take on her qualifications. Historically speaking, she has enough experience to be veep. We can talk about what happens if McCain drops dead on day one, but that sounds tendentious to me - like asking what President Obama would do should Vladimir Putin declare World War III on the day of Obama's inauguration. It sounds smart to people already set upon voting against Obama, but everybody else will probably just roll his or her eyes.

    Does this mean her qualifications will be a non-issue? Not necessarily. She has fewer qualifications than most veeps, that's for sure. Her thin resume could hurt her if and only if she performs badly on television. This, and nothing else, is what matters. The people who could vote Republican this year will give her a chance. Jonathan Alter, Andrew Sullivan, and other pro-Obama commentators in the MSM are not going to sway these people, at least not directly. These analysts could frame the persuables' reactions should they decide they don't like her. So, it's up to Palin.

    For those who are skeptical that she can pull this off, remember - Obama did! While Obama might be special, he's certainly not singular. Lots of people can give good performances on television, even if they have had little practice. Furthermore, unlike Obama as of a year ago, Palin has already been through a real statewide election. Two, in fact - first against incumbent governor Frank Murkowski, then against former governor Tony Knowles. Obama managed to look so poised without such practice.

    The key word for Palin, as it was (and is) for Obama, is poise. She appeared poised at her announcement, which was her most important day. If she appears poised during her nomination acceptance address, poised on the stump, and poised in the debate - her qualifications should be a non-issue, and she'll help McCain deliver his message.

    Third, I think many people are surprised to discover that McCain intends to carry a positive message into the fall. Many of us had assumed that this election would be a referendum on Barack Obama, with McCain serving as an inoffensive backup for those too unsure of the junior senator from Illinois. Just a few weeks ago, I used this logic to argue that McCain should select Mitt Romney, as he was the best among the viable picks to go after Obama.

    John McCain clearly does not share this view of the race. By picking Palin, he is signaling that he intends to win this election not just by attacking Obama, but by offering an affirmative message of his own.

    What is that message? It is that he represents change, too. It's not the "drastic" change that Obama represents, but rather "common sense reform" (scare quotes reflect what we will hear from McCain-Palin, not non-partisan reality). McCain is indicating that he, too, is a candidate whose election would alter the status quo - not as much as Obama's election would, but alter it nonetheless.

    Indeed, it is interesting to consider the two tickets. The fresh but inexperienced candidate is at the top of the Democratic ticket; the experienced pol who, even after all these years, "calls it like he sees it" is at the bottom. With the GOP, it's reversed. These tickets are mirror images of one another. The message to voters from McCain? If you're unhappy with the status quo in Washington, but are worried that Obama-Biden would be too drastic a change, vote McCain-Palin.

    So, the public gets a pretty sophisticated choice this year. It's not a choice between change versus more of the same. It's a choice between degrees of change. I like this. And while I have no idea how Palin will play, I like that McCain believes he has to offer something positive and new to win.

    I still think Obama would have been best served by selecting Hillary Clinton as his nominee. However, given the choice not to select Hillary, I think he made a wise move by picking Joe Biden. As I noted above, Biden is a guy who tells it like it is. So, he adds heft without damaging Obama's core message. The Democrats have a well-balanced ticket. John McCain responded by balancing his ticket well, too.

    All things considered, I like these tickets. Together, they give the public a clear choice. Plus, neither offers the public what it certainly does not want, the status quo. People complain all the time about how our two-party system stifles real debate and fails to offer the public a distinct choice. I am optimistic that, when all is said and done, Obama v. McCain will be one that the naysayers won't point to. When they whine about our "failed politics," they'll have to conveniently forget 2008.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-01-2008 at 22:23.
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  3. #1473
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Excellent article, TuffStuff -- thanks for sharing!

  4. #1474
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Biden is 65, a nationally known politician, and has been operating in the Washington limelight for decades. Everything that's to be said about Biden, for better or for worse, has been said and is out in the open.

    Palin is a big question mark, unbeknown to all outside of Alaska until a few days ago. Surely, it is to be expected that every aspect of her life and career will be scrutinised now? That she will be subjected to a close scrutiny of a level and perseverence she never had to endure as mayor of six thousand Polar bears in the arctic? Lots of stories, rumours, half-truths are emerging, and the dust has yet to settle on her past. None of them have had time to be resolved.

    So I see no bias in sharing the goods? More specifically, in sharing countless links about Palin?

    When Biden was announced, I said in this thread that I had never heard of him before, and that I looked him up in Wiki and CNN. Nothing has emerged since then to expand on what I gathered right there and then. Palin I wiki'ed and CNN'ed too. However, it appears that I didn't even get to know half of her back then as I do by now.


    I think we can all agree that she was chosen for political-strategical considerations. She may be perfectly qualified, or not, that fact remains. If she was a 71-year old male from Texas she wouldn't have been vp-candidate.
    Whether one approves of her views and political choices is a matter of personal political preference. More important is the question whether McCain made the right judgement call with her. Did he get all the information, and did he get it all correct? Or did he stop at 'female, anti-abortion, young, socially conservative, hunts' ?
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  5. #1475
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    As an aside, I think - at least, I hope - that McCain's strategists are sorely mistaken if they hoped Palin would attract Democratic 'Clinton orphans'. Palin is the ultimate insult to Clinton voters. It's Thatcher versus a beauty queen. Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.
    Call me a stopped clock or a broken record, but I wil never cease to be amazed at the difference between racist and sexist sensitivities. Would they have dared to pit an obedient negro boy against Clinton if Obama had lost?
    'Looky here negroes! We've got ourselves a little negro too! Surely there's no need to vote for Clinton now that we found you a clean negro to vote for!? Washed and shaven too! Doesn't our boy remind you of Obama? '
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  6. #1476
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    'Looky here negroes! We've got ourselves a little negro too! Surely there's no need to vote for Clinton now that we found you a clean negro to vote for!? Washed and shaven too! Doesn't our boy remind you of Obama? '
    Ah, but we have in on record from Joe Biden that Obama already is clean. And Joe stands close enough to smell, so he would know. So they'd have to find something else to sell about a new negro.

  7. #1477
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.
    Palin got the governorship of Alaska by bringing down a member of her own party. She's fought Big Oil up in Alaska. She's reform minded in the same vein as McCain.

    Hillary's hardest job in getting elected Senator was finding a house in New York.

    I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.

    CR
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  8. #1478
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Here is a pretty fair article about what McCain is doing. It's like Jay Cost is in my brain and laying out my arguments better than I ever could...
    That sums up my thinking pretty well too. I would only add (just half-jokingly) that while McCain and Palin have both made a name for themselves by standing up to their party, Palin did so by speaking out against corruption, whereas McCain all too often did so by sandbagging the GOP base.

    On experience, I would say Palin and Obama's experience is somewhat equitable. We could argue about how has more, or more relevant experience, but I would still put them both at least in the same ballpark. The obvious difference, of course, is that one is running for president and one is running for VP. I would not support Palin for president as things stand currently. But if she doesn't fold under the pressure of the campaign and the office of VP I think she could have the potential to be a fine president some day. I could say the same thing of Obama, except being the liberal he is, I would never support him or his policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    As an aside, I think - at least, I hope - that McCain's strategists are sorely mistaken if they hoped Palin would attract Democratic 'Clinton orphans'. Palin is the ultimate insult to Clinton voters. It's Thatcher versus a beauty queen. Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.
    Based on my own anecdotal observations, I would disagree. My area, in fact my entire state went heavily for Hillary in the primaries. You have no idea how furious some of them are that she was not included on the ticket. I've heard probably dozens of self-proclaimed Hillary supporters react enthusiastically to the Palin announcement. Of course, I don't think all Hillary voters will vote McCain because of Palin, but I don't think the numbers will be as insignificant as most seem to think. There seems to be a strategic thinking at work on their part- they don't like Obama and wanted Hillary to be prez(and seem to think she was used badly by the Obama campaign). By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse and in 4 more years they get a chance to give Hillary the nomination again.

    I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
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  9. #1479
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post

    Would it be possible for me to get a simulated response from DevDave?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo
    Well, he wouldn't want his girls "punished" with one of those parasite things attatcked to their uterus, in fact, I'm sure your messiah would cut that growth right out himself... Bow and worship Lemur, He hath spoken...
    Last edited by Devastatin Dave; 09-01-2008 at 23:58.
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  10. #1480
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Nevermind...
    Last edited by CountArach; 09-02-2008 at 00:07. Reason: I confused myself
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  11. #1481
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo
    Well, he wouldn't want his girls "punished" with one of those parasite things attatcked to their uterus [...]
    Hmm, he then also says he doesn't want to see them "punished" with an STD either, so it sure sounds like he's talking about condoms, O devastating one. Abortion doesn't prevent STDs. (I have to tell you these little facts, since you probably only received abstinence education.)

    Come on, if Barack Hussein Obama had a seventeen-year-old daughter who was pregnant and unmarried, I know you'd have some zingers to throw out there. It ain't like anything's been off-limits so far, right?

  12. #1482
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.
    Rubbish!

    Besides, did I ever mention that Hilary bears an uncanny physical resemblance to my mother? My father's short and dark. My mother is the spitting image of Hillary. Go ahead, be as Freudian about it as you dare.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 09-02-2008 at 00:07.
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  13. #1483
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    I've heard probably dozens of self-proclaimed Hillary supporters react enthusiastically to the Palin announcement.


    By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse

    I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
    I am looking forward to the polls myself. Am very curious to see what female voters of Clinton will do.

    I am not a female voter (well, technically, not a voter at all in this election), it may be different for them. I don't necessarily need to see a woman in the White House. Last time that I had the opportunity over here, I didn't vote for the female candidate myself. I must say that I did appreciate the historical significance of Hillary's candidacy.

    But the vastly more important consideration was that I approved of her political choices. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I would also support a male Clinton in the White House.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
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  14. #1484

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    When was this?
    I meant disco.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    When brought to its logical conclusion it is. Thanks, Obama campaign for bringing this up for discussion.
    The Obama campaign has pretty much avoided talking too much about palin. Does having her as the vp candidate make any of you more likely to vote for McCain? Her experience level is irrelevant, the poor positions she supports, the lack of judgment in her record and her ethics investigation is what's significant. Along with the fact that in McCain's first real presidential decision he did poorly.


    The new obama ad is hilarious:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNzieebcXvM

  15. #1485
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Wasn't there some rabid feminist who accused all men of being sexist because they wouldn't vote for Hillary? I am savoring the irony right now. It's the politicians stupid!
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  16. #1486
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
    Ramussen had a poll yesterday that showed Palin very favorable with the base, bleh with undecideds. Here's a focus group from today. Dang it, I can't find that Ramussen data. CountArch, since you're now the resident Poll Smoker, can you help a brutha out?

    Another week, another Frank Luntz/AARP focus group of undecided voters--this one in Minneapolis and with some bad news for John McCain: they don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president. Only one person said Palin made him more likely to vote for McCain; about half the 25-member group raised their hands when asked if Palin made them less likely to vote for McCain. They had a negative impression of Palin by a 2-1 margin...a fact that was reinforced when they were given hand-dials and asked to react to Palin's speech at her first appearance with McCain on Friday---the dials remained totally neutral as Palin went through her heart-warming(?) biography, and only blipped upwards when she said she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere--which wasn't quite the truth, as we now know.

    Confounded pay-only polling data. The best I can do at the moment is a blog quoting the Ramussen data, which is lame, I know, so don't bother telling me how lame it is:

    But among the critical undecideds, the Palin pick made only 6 percent more likely to vote for McCain; and it made 31 percent less likely to vote for him. 49 percent said it would have no impact, and 15 percent remained unsure. More to the point: among undecideds, 59 percent said Palin was unready to be president. Only 6 percent said she was.
    Last edited by Lemur; 09-02-2008 at 00:22.

  17. #1487
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse and in 4 more years they get a chance to give Hillary the nomination again.

    I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
    I posted this many pages back, but it got buried:

    Women more sceptical of Palin than men


    Women are 1 point less likely to vote for Plain and men are 6 points more likely. These can be explained by the partisan identification, where Democrats are slanted more towards women (Largely because of issues like Abortion) and Republicans have more men. However, what I find more interesting is that Palin looses the "ready to be President" question by 23 points. There is also this one:

    "Indeed, among voters already committed to one or the other candidate, her choice would seem to do little bit entrench partisan feelings: just 6 percent of McCain voters say they're less likely to vote for McCain with Palin on the ticket, while just 9 percent of Obama voters say they're more so."

    Assuming that the Obama supporters is where Clintonistas comes from, then there probably won't be a great deal of movement.

    EDIT: Haha Lemur, that was great timing
    Last edited by CountArach; 09-02-2008 at 00:16.
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  18. #1488
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Just to expand a bit on TuffStuffMcGruff's observation, HERE's the text of his statement on the matter:



    Gets high marks from me for that, although, if I'd been him I'd have added: "... - they'd be fired and referred for possible prosecution ." Such a sentence would have nailed down his 100% opposition to the tactic, so he wouldn't sound like GWB a year or so ago with "Scooter-gate".
    He stays "clean" as his buddy Biden would say, as his subject do the dirty work for him. Big deal...
    RIP Tosa

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Ramussen had a poll yesterday that showed Palin very favorable with the base, bleh with undecideds. Here's a focus group from today. Dang it, I can't find that Ramussen data. CountArch, since you're now the resident Poll Smoker, can you help a brutha out?
    Yeah, I heard some of that. But honestly, I don't really think your average person knows her that well at this point, so I think these day-after polls are a bit premature. If these numbers continue, so be it, but I don't buy into them completely just yet.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  20. #1490
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post

    Come on, if Barack Hussein Obama had a seventeen-year-old daughter who was pregnant and unmarried, I know you'd have some zingers to throw out there. It ain't like anything's been off-limits so far, right?
    Thanks Lemur...

    a Stoning, a stoning!!!

    Whew, I feel batter now, time for a, well I quit smoking, what can I do Lemur to occupy my mouth after such satisfaction?
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Yeah, I heard some of that. But honestly, I don't really think your average person knows her that well at this point, so I think these day-after polls are a bit premature. If these numbers continue, so be it, but I don't buy into them completely just yet.
    August 29th - 67% of people had no opinion on Sarah Palin (Including 78% of women).
    August 30th - 21% of people don't know enough about her.

    Isn't the 24 hour newscycle wonderful?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach
    These can be explained by the partisan identification, where Democrats are slanted more towards women (Largely because of issues like Abortion) and Republicans have more men.
    While I addressed the polls earlier, I wanted to pull this comment out in specific as I believe it may be inaccurate.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The balance between pro-choice women and women who say abortion should be outlawed or severely restricted is shifting toward the pro-life side, bumping that group into the majority in the debate over reproductive rights, according to a new national poll.

    Fifty-one percent of women surveyed by the Center for the Advancement of Women said the government should prohibit abortion or limit it to extreme cases, such as rape, incest, or life-threatening complications.

    The findings, with a 3 percent margin of error for the 1,000 women surveyed, tips the scale from the last sampling in 2001, when 45 percent of women sided against making abortion readily available or imposing only mild restrictions. Only 30 percent support making it generally available, down from 34 percent in 2001, the survey found.

    The New York-based center that sponsored the survey is a nonpartisan advocacy group for pro-choice women's rights. The center's president, Faye Wattleton, headed the Planned Parenthood Federation of America for 14 years.
    link.
    I realize that evidence is dated by a few years, and if the numbers have shifted the other way since then, I'd love to see the polls.
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    I quit smoking, what can I do Lemur to occupy my mouth after such satisfaction?
    As a fellow ex-smoker, I recommend the chew of kings:


    The original flava keeps it real, yo.

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    I would freak because his daughters are like 10 and 13.
    No offence or to sound racist, but they are and African American family. I'd be a little surprised but not exactly shock. Teen pregnancy happens at a hire rate in African Americans than any other racial groups in America. He's just keepin' it real.
    RIP Tosa

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.
    It´s true that Hilary had no job running for the presidency....hell...her entire political career is based on the fact that she is married to Bill Clinton, who was Hillary before she become first lady?..nobody.

    But to claim that this woman, that was drafted out of Alaska just so that McCain could look modern and progressivism for the feminists, is any better is a joke.

    I don´t have problem with women in politics...but they have to pull their weight just like everyone else...what we are seeing here is more than just being given a free ride.

    I don´t deny what Palin has done..but to equate that as her being up to the task of being the vice president to a 72 year old cancer survivor is quite frankly pushing it.

    This issue just goes to show how far you guys in America are so entrenched in your party lines that you can´t see anything past them.

    If the McCain campaign had made public a list of 5 people that they where considering for the vice president slot and Palin was amongst them the same people that are here defending her would be looking up dirt on her and finding reasons why she should be vetoed out....

    but since McCain said her name as a done deal those very same people are stuck with here and are here defending her just because they want to stick it to the democrats....

    it´s damn ridiculous.
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    As a fellow ex-smoker, I recommend the chew of kings:


    The original flava keeps it real, yo.
    Did you not hear my toe tapping, big boy?
    RIP Tosa

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    No offence or to sound racist, but they are and African American family. I'd be a little surprised but not exactly shock. Teen pregnancy happens at a hire rate in African Americans than any other racial groups in America. He's just keepin' it real.
    "Compared to teens from higher income families, poor and low-income teens are somewhat more likely to be sexually active and somewhat less likely to use contraceptives or to use contraception successfully. Poor and low-income adolescents make up 38 percent of all women ages 15 to 19; yet, they account for 73 percent of all pregnancies in that age group"

    source


    and if you scroll down this page a bit you'll see a nice graph of median income by race in the midwest.
    http://www.ibrc.indiana.edu/ibr/2006/fall/article2.html

    In the end people are separated more by class then by race
    Last edited by woad&fangs; 09-02-2008 at 01:19.
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    but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the princely
    chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    While I addressed the polls earlier, I wanted to pull this comment out in specific as I believe it may be inaccurate.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    link.
    I realize that evidence is dated by a few years, and if the numbers have shifted the other way since then, I'd love to see the polls.
    Its a bit hard to find polling on single issues that isn't completely biased (I found a NARAL poll, but that was phrased so poorly that there is no way it could be even remotely balanced...). What I did find, however was Gallup's 'Values' poll from 2008 (taken in May). Here.
    According to Gallup's annual Values and Beliefs survey, updated May 8-11, Americans as a whole are slightly more likely to call themselves "pro-choice" on abortion than "pro-life," 50% to 44%. This is nearly identical to where Americans stood on the issue a year ago, and is similar to the close division seen since 1998. Prior to that (from about 1995 to 1997) Gallup found a stronger pro-choice tilt.

    The current poll finds no difference between men and women in the percentages calling themselves pro-choice and pro-life. Americans 55 and older are a bit more "pro-life" than those aged 18 to 34 and 35 to 54. Much greater differences are seen by personal ideology and party affiliation. Three-quarters of liberals and 6 in 10 Democrats call themselves pro-choice, compared with only about 30% of Republicans and conservatives. Independents and moderates fall closer to the Democrats in their views.
    It then breaks down women as 50-43 pro-choice.

    EDIT: Wow, 1500 posts in the thread.
    Last edited by CountArach; 09-02-2008 at 01:28.
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Daily Show had a very amusing take on the whole Palin thing. Worth watching if only to hear Samantha Bee declare herself to be "a proud Vagina-American."

    -edit-

    To spare Xiahou any unnecessary pain, the "Vagina-American" moment comes at about 3:00.
    Last edited by Lemur; 09-02-2008 at 03:54.

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I thought this was an interesting take on McCain's foreign policy experience, given his penchant for gambling in vegas.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The world has been moving John McCain’s way over the past year. The success of the “surge” in Iraq has helped his cause. So has the Russian invasion of Georgia. On both issues, the Republican candidate for the presidency took positions that now look prescient and courageous.

    More generally, the sense that the world is getting more dangerous helps Republicans in general – and a tough, experienced, military man such as Mr McCain in particular. Why take the risk of electing a neophyte such as Barack Obama, the Democratic candidate?

    Opinion polls consistently show that the American public has more faith in Mr McCain as commander-in-chief. He looks like the safe choice for dangerous times.

    But this is wrong. Mr McCain will not run a “safe” foreign policy. He adores rolling the dice. His decision to select Governor Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate typifies the man. It is a big risk. It could turn out to be inspired. Or it might turn out to be a disaster. But it is not “safe”.

    Mr McCain approaches international affairs in the same spirit. His instinct is always to take the radical option and to march towards the sound of gunfire.

    It was indeed courageous to back the idea of sending more troops to Iraq, at a time when the war was going so badly. But it was the same instinct to choose the bold, aggressive option that made Mr McCain such an enthusiastic backer of the Iraq war in the first place. Indeed, he was arguing for the invasion of Iraq well before the terror attacks on New York and Washington. That now looks reckless.

    The Georgian crisis also looks, at first sight, like a vindication for Mr McCain. He has been a longstanding critic of the Russian government. He saw the crisis in Georgia coming a long time ago.

    When I visited Georgia last April I discovered that President Mikheil Saakashvili counted Mr McCain as one of his closest friends and allies. Mr Saakashvili told me (with a laugh) that the South Ossetians – whose rebel enclave he later attacked, with such disastrous consequences – had even shot a missile at a helicopter carrying Cindy McCain, the Senator’s wife. And the Georgian president told me proudly that Mr McCain had given him a gift – a bullet-proof vest.

    Even at the time, this struck me as an ambiguous present. Was it saying, I’m behind you all the way; or was it saying, best of luck, I’ll be cheering for you – from a safe distance? Now that Georgia has been so severely mauled by Russia, the dangerous ambiguities in the policies pushed by Mr McCain and the Bush administration are even clearer. The Georgians were flattered, hugged and trained by the Americans. But when the Russian tanks rolled in, there was little the west could do.

    Mr McCain says that President Teddy Roosevelt is one of his heroes. But Mr McCain’s proclamation in the aftermath of the Russia’s invasion – that “we are all Georgians now” – was the opposite of Roosevelt’s famous advice to “speak softly and carry a big stick”. It was tough talk, with very little to back it up.

    Mr McCain’s failure to spell out the implications of his strong rhetorical support for Georgia may mean that he has failed to think things through – or just that he does not want to alarm voters. But the Republican needs to answer some difficult questions.

    Is the US really prepared to fight Russia to protect Georgia and Ukraine – as Mr McCain’s firm support for swift Nato membership for these countries implies? Are we entering a new cold war, as his determination to isolate Russia suggests? If the tough talk is not backed up by tough action, what does that do to American credibility?

    Mr McCain’s instinct certainly is to confront Russia – and indeed China. Even before the conflict in Georgia, he was arguing for throwing Russia out of the Group of Eight and forming a new League of Democracies.

    Mr McCain’s confrontational instincts are even more to the fore when it comes to Iran. He has said that the only thing worse than a war with Iran would be a nuclear-armed Iran. Taken at face value – and given what we know of Iran’s nuclear programme – that sounds like a commitment to attack Iran within the first term of a McCain presidency.

    The Obama camp argue that Mr McCain will simply continue with the policies of President George W. Bush. The comparison is certainly interesting. In some ways, Mr McCain is a more reassuring figure – because he is curious and has thought hard about foreign policy for many years. But in other respects, Mr McCain might make Mr Bush look like a cautious softie. It was Mr McCain, not Mr Bush, who was the favourite of the neo-conservative wing of the Republican party, when the two men ran against each for the Republican nomination in 2000. Mr McCain’s policies on Iran, Russia and China are more hawkish even than those of the Bush administration.

    Then there is the matter of temperament. Mr Bush is a sunny and optimistic person. Mr McCain is funnier, darker and angrier. Mr Bush steered clear of Vietnam. Mr McCain really is a warrior, whose autobiography begins “I was born into a tradition of military service” – and whose books are full of brooding reflections on the nature of honour.

    In international crises, the character and instincts of the American president are critical. Mr Obama is by temperament a cautious, pragmatic conciliator. Mr McCain is aggressive, unorthodox and radical.

    Sometimes, of course, the radical choice is the right one. Mr McCain would be an interesting choice for president. But safe? Forget about it.



    It's becoming increasingly clear that palin was not vetted. Obama's line of attack seems to be saying a few nice things and ignoring her while letting the media go after her. Although I did see that he'd said something about how his campaign's monthly budget is three times the yearly budget of wasilla and that it has 2,500 people.

    The republican tactic seems to be accusing anyone who criticizes palin of sexism. Mostly they just seem to be getting cut up by the media though:

    McCain staffer desperately trying to defend palin's foreign policy experience

    You can see the republican line of defense a few minutes into this one

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