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Thread: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

  1. #3781
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Things do not look good for the woman who alleges she was mutilated for being a McCain supporter:

    Richard said the woman refused medical treatment after the assault, which happened outside the view of the bank's surveillance cameras.

    Speaking to Channel 4 Action News on Friday, Richard said they're still questioning Todd because of some new developments.

    "We have learned that the victim's statement has a few inconsistencies in it and her statement has changed," said Richard

    Richard said Todd now says she isn't sure if it was a bumper sticker on her car or a campaign button on her jacket that angered the attacker. Richard said Todd added new details to the attack, saying at one point she lost consciousness.

    "She also indicated she was sexually assaulted as well. She indicated that when he had her on the ground he put his hand up her blouse and started fondling her. But other than that, she says she doesn't remember anything else. So we're adding a sexual assault to this as well," Richard said.

    As I said, Matt Drudge is going to regret using his infamous red font.

  2. #3782
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Things do not look good for the woman who alleges she was mutilated for being a McCain supporter:
    Richard said the woman refused medical treatment after the assault, which happened outside the view of the bank's surveillance cameras.

    Speaking to Channel 4 Action News on Friday, Richard said they're still questioning Todd because of some new developments.

    "We have learned that the victim's statement has a few inconsistencies in it and her statement has changed," said Richard

    Richard said Todd now says she isn't sure if it was a bumper sticker on her car or a campaign button on her jacket that angered the attacker. Richard said Todd added new details to the attack, saying at one point she lost consciousness.

    "She also indicated she was sexually assaulted as well. She indicated that when he had her on the ground he put his hand up her blouse and started fondling her. But other than that, she says she doesn't remember anything else. So we're adding a sexual assault to this as well," Richard said.
    As I said, Matt Drudge is going to regret using his infamous red font.
    Just look at the picture. The B is backwards and she has that crazy "i just sent a bunch of sent a bunch of salem girls to death for witchcraft". The B is also very gently scratched into her face. She is a chunky crazy girl looking for attention.
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  3. #3783
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Things do not look good for the woman who alleges she was mutilated for being a McCain supporter:
    As I said, Matt Drudge is going to regret using his infamous red font.
    Yup, I think you're right. Glad I didn't make a really snarky remark in my first post.

    Anyway, the democrats are providing yet another reason (besides their love for the "fairness doctrine") not to vote for them:
    Some of them have plans to abolish 401(k) tax breaks, set up another retirement fund managed by the social security administration and force all workers to contribute 5% of their pay. The workers would get an interest rate of 3%, and the government would contribute $600 dollars each year.
    http://www.workforce.com/section/00/...e/25/83/58.php
    What a ******* moronic idea.

    A more thoughtful analysis:
    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-...01k-plans.html
    I hate to use the "S" word, but the American government would never do something as, well, socialist as seize private pension funds, right? This is exactly what cash-strapped Argentina just did in the name of protecting workers' retirement accounts (Efharisto, Fausta's Blog). Now, even Uncle Sam isn't that stupid, but some Democrats might try something almost as loopy: kill 401(k) plans.

    House Democrats recently invited Teresa Ghilarducci, a professor at the New School of Social Research, to testify before a subcommittee on her idea to eliminate the preferential tax treatment of the popular retirement plans. In place of 401(k) plans, she would have workers transfer their dough into government-created "guaranteed retirement accounts" for every worker. The government would deposit $600 (inflation indexed) every year into the GRAs. Each worker would also have to save 5 percent of pay into the accounts, to which the government would pay a measly 3 percent return. Rep. Jim McDermott, a Democrat from Washington and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee's Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, said that since "the savings rate isn't going up for the investment of $80 billion [in 401(k) tax breaks], we have to start to think about whether or not we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that's not generating what we now say it should."

    A few respectful observations:

    1) McDermott is right when he says the savings rate isn't going up. But the savings rate doesn't include gains to money you invest in the stock market. It ignores the buildup of net worth. (If you bought a share of XYZ Corp. in January at $100, for instance, and its value doubled by December, the savings rate measure would still value that investment at $100. In short, the savings rate is a phony number.)

    2) So based partly on the above faulty logic, the $4.5 trillion, as of the start of the year, invested in 401(k) plans doesn't count as savings.

    3) Ghilarducci would have workers abandon the stock market right at the bottom of the market. A stupid idea, according to Warren Buffett: "I don't like to opine on the stock market, and again I emphasize that I have no idea what the market will do in the short term. Nevertheless, I'll follow the lead of a restaurant that opened in an empty bank building and then advertised: 'Put your mouth where your money was.' Today my money and my mouth both say equities."

    4) Ghilarducci would offer a lousy 3 percent return. The long-run return of the stock market, adjusted for inflation, is more like 7 percent. Look at it this way: Ten thousand dollars growing at 3 percent a year for 40 years leaves you with roughly $22,000. But $10,000 growing at 7 percent a year for 40 years leaves you with $150,000. That is a high price to pay for what Ghilarducci describes as the removal of "a source of financial anxiety and...fruitless discussions with brokers and financial sales agents, who are also desperate for more fees and are often wrong about markets." Please, I'll take a bit of worry for an additional $128,000.

    5) What effect would this plan have on an already battered stock market? Well, I would imagine it would send it even lower, sticking a shiv into the portfolios of everyone who didn't jump aboard. But I am sure the Chinese would love to jump in and buy all our cheap stocks to fund the retirement of their citizens.

    My bottom line: If you believe in the long-run dynamism of the American economy, then you have to believe in the stock market. Listen to superinvestor Buffett, not the prof from the New School.
    How can they be so stupid? The economy is going to get the **** beat out of it with moronic proposals like this and all Obama's tax hikes.

    CR
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 10-24-2008 at 15:57. Reason: Bold'd
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  4. #3784

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    he needs 3 jobs to pay for the ridiculous property/state taxes we pay where i live.
    In that case he should get a decent job , you know a nice middle class job with decent pay .

    . i mean, if you came to my house you wouldnt think se were low-class.
    Not suggesting anything here , but I know some real low class scumbags that live in huge mansions in "exclusive" areas yet have never done an honest days work in their lives just as I know regular millionairs who live in small houses down in the terraces so I wouldn't judge someones class by the house they live in or their neighbourhood .
    Actually come to think of it one of the richest men in town does live in what is a very expensive much sought after location , but he doesn't live in the old shack there that might just pass as a house if he put the roof back on it , he lives in a little caravan in the front yard .

  5. #3785
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Drudge breaks out the red font again...
    The 'victim' made it up

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  6. #3786
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    In that case he should get a decent job , you know a nice middle class job with decent pay .
    hes a tenured university professor. lets not discuss my family's financial situation, ok?

    also, hes paying for a kid in an ivy-league college, a kid in high school (me) 2 kids in elementary/middle school, and a 2 year old.

    now, i dont know if youve ever had to look for a job, but its hard, especially in this economy.
    he does what he loves, and i guess thats it.

    but lets not digress.

    my point was that i dont want the money he makes taken away, which will happen under obama.
    thats destroying the american dream.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 10-24-2008 at 20:14.
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  7. #3787
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Does that make it a facial slur?
    This space intentionally left blank

  8. #3788
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
    my point was that i dont want the money he makes taken away, which will happen under obama.
    He's a University Prof. and his income is in excess of $250k per year? That doesn't really sound right.

  9. #3789
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    He's a University Prof. and his income is in excess of $250k per year? That doesn't really sound right.
    The overwhelming majority of people I have spoken to who give taxes as their reason for not wanting Obama to win are, in my opinion, just Republicans looking for an excuse to not change how they vote after 8 years of a President even most Republicans have the sanity to be embarrassed of, and an elderly candidate with an incompetent VP who basically promises continuing the same failed policies in every significant regard.

    The reason I think this is because when you ask people who give taxes as their reason for opposing Obama, almost unerringly they fall well under the level of people whose taxes would be raised under Obama's plan. But they "don't believe it." I have heard 1,001 variations of the fanciful rationales as to how "really" his plan will mean their taxes will go up. And in all cases these were people making under 100K.

    Yet, that level of "I don't buy it" doesn't seem to apply to McCain's promises.

    It was hard for me to wrap my mind around how these people making 45k, 60k, 75k absolutely insist Obama is lying and their taxes are going to go up under Obama. The only way I can explain it is that they're grasping that last straw of "Dems raise taxes, Reps lower them" and ignoring the fine print to justify voting Republican this time around.
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  10. #3790
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    He's a University Prof. and his income is in excess of $250k per year? That doesn't really sound right.
    And he have to keep this salary to get his kids at school, while keeping the house. And that's only if you pick Obama who's a socialist that would tax him more, while giving tax funded education and grants for having children, both things no matter the income, making his family one of the main beneficients of those socialists policies, unless his father is really, really wealthy (aka the increased taxes is much more than what it costs to keep the kids in school).
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  11. #3791
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    i dont believe for a minute that the only people who will see their taxes increase are people who make over $250k. all taxes will go up. thats what i think. i dont believe his policy of only taxing the ones who worked really hard, or who got their fortunes from relatives who worked really hard, will stay.

    heck, i dont even really see why hes doing it.
    taxing, even the rich, doesnt help the economy. tax breaks helps it.
    with tax breaks, people have more money, they spend more, helping the eco.

    dont get me wrong, im no economist, but what i would do if i were prez is tax cut everyone, give big tax cuts to american companies, especially american car companies, put tariffs on some foreign imports (like cars), which will encourage americans to buy american products, helping our eco.
    im not sure if this will work, but it sounds like a good idea.

    btw no he doesnt make over $250k.
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  12. #3792
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
    i dont believe for a minute that the only people who will see their taxes increase are people who make over $250k. all taxes will go up. thats what i think. i dont believe his policy of only taxing the ones who worked really hard, or who got their fortunes from relatives who worked really hard, will stay.

    heck, i dont even really see why hes doing it.
    taxing, even the rich, doesnt help the economy. tax breaks helps it.
    with tax breaks, people have more money, they spend more, helping the eco.

    dont get me wrong, im no economist, but what i would do if i were prez is tax cut everyone, give big tax cuts to american companies, especially american car companies, put tariffs on some foreign imports (like cars), which will encourage americans to buy american products, helping our eco.
    im not sure if this will work, but it sounds like a good idea.

    btw no he doesnt make over $250k.
    Alright, so you dismiss Obama as dishonest. Why do you trust McCain more?
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  13. #3793
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    i dont.......

    hes just the peferable of the two....
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  14. #3794
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
    i dont.......

    hes just the peferable of the two....
    Just say that then. Because I think that's what's at the heart of it and I think a huge majority of the people claiming taxes as their reason are not going to be substantially affected under either candidate. The only real difference is if you've been doing fantastically well for the last 8 years, you'll have to start paying the same fair share you used to before the Bush tax cuts. And if you've been doing fantastically well for the last 8 years McCain wants to give you a larger tax cut than most Americans' income for a year and a half.

    I think people are forgetting that what the rich pay now is not "an already crushing burden and Obama's tax plan will unfairly tax them." It will simply be returning to the tax structure as it was before Bush decided that the people who most needed enormous tax cuts were the sort of people who owned transnational corporations and hedge fund managers.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-24-2008 at 21:36.
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    A powerful blow, Koga.

    Honestly, that argument is succinct and very reasonable, and I haven't yet seen a reasonable response from the opposition which discredits it.

    I might be biased towards Obama, but the opposition seriously needs to discredit this point before we move forward. I feel this point cripples any economic/taxation argument made by the Republican side.
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  16. #3796
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    A rightwing blogger goes completely off the rails:

    But believe me, if you think this guy would leave the campaign trail for an hour if he felt he were running from behind, he wouldn't do it. Not unless he thought it helped him to do so. [...] Man. I hope his numbers don't start to drop. He might have to hold a pillow against her face and maybe later break into tears the way Hillary did. Only I suspect hers were genuine.

    That's right, kids, Obama is the kind of guy who would murder his own grandma just to ... well, I'm not clear on what. This guy is long on paranoid, baroque fantasy, but low on motives. Maybe I should email him and ask for a clarification.

  17. #3797
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    A rightwing blogger goes completely off the rails:

    But believe me, if you think this guy would leave the campaign trail for an hour if he felt he were running from behind, he wouldn't do it. Not unless he thought it helped him to do so. [...] Man. I hope his numbers don't start to drop. He might have to hold a pillow against her face and maybe later break into tears the way Hillary did. Only I suspect hers were genuine.

    That's right, kids, Obama is the kind of guy who would murder his own grandma just to ... well, I'm not clear on what. This guy is long on paranoid, baroque fantasy, but low on motives. Maybe I should email him and ask for a clarification.
    I've already heard similar things. I heard someone commenting in a restaurant that "of course Obama's gonna go there and then she's gonna die and they're going to work that all in."

    Yup, just like Kerry got himself shot on purpose, Obama timed his grandmother's death for political gain.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    A powerful blow, Koga.

    Honestly, that argument is succinct and very reasonable, and I haven't yet seen a reasonable response from the opposition which discredits it.

    I might be biased towards Obama, but the opposition seriously needs to discredit this point before we move forward. I feel this point cripples any economic/taxation argument made by the Republican side.
    You must have missed the discussion a few pages back about how, by definition, there is nothing "fair" about a progressive tax. I thought Koga even admitted that, while saying it was a necessity nonetheless. When 40% of the population currently pays no federal income taxes at all, I can't see how shifting even more of the burden onto the top incomes is "fair". I think "fair" would be more like if everyone paid a set percentage of their income no matter how successful they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary
    A rightwing blogger goes completely off the rails:
    Who cares what some anonymous nobody says on his blog? I don't see the point.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-24-2008 at 23:10.
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  19. #3799
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    You must have missed the discussion a few pages back about how, by definition, there is nothing "fair" about a progressive tax. I thought Koga even admitted that, while saying it was a necessity nonetheless. When 40% of the population currently pays no federal income taxes at all, I can't see how shifting even more of the burden onto the top incomes is "fair".

    Who cares what some anonymous nobody says on his blog? I don't see the relevance.
    40% of the population pays no effective tax because wages are so low that once mortgage and similar deductions are out of the way so many Americans are, on paper, poor. Not because they're skipping along and cashcowing.

    If you'd care to reform that system, then you are a Socialist.

    This "fairness argument" overlooks the fact that the typical person not paying tax vs. the typical person paying tax frequently have exponential differences in their income.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-24-2008 at 23:12.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    40% of the population pays no effective tax because wages are so low that once mortgage and similar deductions are out of the way so many Americans are, on paper, poor. Not because they're skipping along and cashcowing.

    If you'd care to reform that system, then you are a Socialist.
    That's a load. 40% of the US populace is not "poor".
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    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    That's a load. 40% of the US populace is not "poor".
    Re-read my post.

    Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households.

    Just sayin... not really sure how placing more of a "fair tax distribution" over the 80% of the workforce that hasn't seen actualized gains in 33 years would be a good thing.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-24-2008 at 23:21.
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    now, i dont know if youve ever had to look for a job, but its hard,
    Yes I did have to look for jobs ...when I was a kid and it wasn't hard . Now I wait for them to look for me .

    my point was that i dont want the money he makes taken away
    Thats what accountants are for

  23. #3803
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    Just sayin... not really sure how placing more of a "fair tax distribution" over the 80% of the workforce that hasn't seen actualized gains in 33 years would be a good thing.
    That's the neat thing about percentages. If the top earners are getting all the gains, they're also paying all the more in taxes. If your income remains the same, your income taxes remain the same. Again, that's eminently fair. This 'stick it to the rich' mentality that is being pushed by the Democrats is just pandering to class envy.

    If you think the upper incomes should have to pay higher rates of income taxes to support everyone else, then make that argument. Calling disproportionately taxing people with higher incomes "fair" is just trying to turn it into an emotional, us vs them argument and it's fallacious.
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    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    That's the neat thing about percentages. If the top earners are getting all the gains, they're also paying all the more in taxes. If your income remains the same, your income taxes remain the same. Again, that's eminently fair. This 'stick it to the rich' mentality that is being pushed by the Democrats is just pandering to class envy.

    If you think the upper incomes should have to pay higher rates of income taxes to support everyone else, then make that argument. Calling disproportionately taxing people with higher incomes "fair" is just trying to turn it into an emotional, us vs them argument and it's fallacious.
    So you do not deny that all taxable income is concentrated in relatively very few hands. You just are complaining that it's not fair that the 10-20% who are overwhelmingly better compensated than everyone else have to pay more taxes.

    I don't have a remedy for that, nor do I see specifically what it is you are advocating by bringing it up. If you want a society where tax comes fairly from everyone than go out and advocate for changes that would create a society where most people aren't basically broke after their relatively basic expenses such as their roof, food, car and living expenses. But wait... financial conservatives are against minimum wage increases, health insurance requirements or generally paying high wages, the things that would push more people into middle and upper middle class, if it means cutting golden packages for the highest earning positions, right? So catch 22. Are you proposing something or just complaining that it's unfair?
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I could kind of see the fairness in a flat income percentage tax. The trouble is, it would vastly increase the percentage lower-income people pay in taxes, and as such, more people would be on the welfare dole getting money, which means that we would need more taxes to pay for it.

    What is MUCH fairer is a sales tax. Get rid of ALL income taxes, that's the fairest system, and only tax nonessentials.

    Medicine, food, and clothing that is under 20 dollars per item, school supplies, etc, are all essentials.

    Cars, boats, jewelry, fancy clothes, big screen TV's, imported wine, beer, cigarettes, any basically anything you don't need to survive could ALL stand to have a heavier tax on them, and since people would no longer have an income tax, they could afford the increase. And without an income tax, MORE people could afford their own health insurance, and more people could afford to save, which means less people would declare bankruptcy.

    Income tax is an unfair kind of tax. Rich people should get to keep 100% of their earnings, and just pay through the nose on all the luxury items they buy.
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  26. #3806
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Income tax is an unfair kind of tax.
    Agreed but so is the stratification of pay in the U.S., IMHO. I am not sure why the economy should be unfair and the tax fair.
    Koga no Goshi

    I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.

  27. #3807
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    If you think the upper incomes should have to pay higher rates of income taxes to support everyone else, then make that argument.
    That's what we've been doing since 1916. If you want to abolish the progressive income tax in favor of some radical reform, then make that argument.

  28. #3808
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    imported wine

    a heavier tax
    What!!??

    What of the poor people in other countries? They'll starve to death if you levy high taxes on essential foodstuffs like quality wine.
    Plus you'll only deprive America's poor of the pleasures of foreign wines, who couldn't afford it anymore, while the rich will continue to drink it anyway.

    See, this is why socialism in America is bad. America needs to remain its consumerist brutally capitalistic self, so that we may enjoy our gentle socialist ways.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 10-25-2008 at 01:21.
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  29. #3809
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Interesting. Crazed Rabbit said about 12 hours ago that the Democrats in Congress are planning on transferring everyone's 401k accounts into a managed Democrat government fund. And neither Lemur, nor Koga, nor any of the other usual defenders jump up to proclaim its a lie.

    So I guess Jillian, Allison Mrs. Corleone and I should kiss the retirement account goodbye?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  30. #3810
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Interesting. Crazed Rabbit said about 12 hours ago that the Democrats in Congress are planning on transferring everyone's 401k accounts into a managed Democrat government fund. And neither Lemur, nor Koga, nor any of the other usual defenders jump up to proclaim its a lie.

    So I guess Jillian, Allison Mrs. Corleone and I should kiss the retirement account goodbye?
    CR says a lot of stuff, always in some bad light about the Dems, we can't really be expected to run around addressing each and every single one can we? :)

    Besides, isn't everyone's 401k pretty junked at the moment anyway? It's kinda like a flash flood just went through and you're saying "OH MY GOD. IT'S RAINING!!!"
    Koga no Goshi

    I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.

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