What would you do with this campaign??

[Tarkus]

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed with my (M/H) Roman campaign, 195BC. Here's the strategic situation (FOW on)...note that while I'm not adhering to Quintus Sertorius - style historical accuracy (that's a compliment, by the way), I would like to try and stay within reason as this campaign rolls forward.



Enemies:

Arverni -- Back on their heels after I kicked them out of northern Iberia and after getting pounded by a resurgent Aedui tribe
KH -- Forced out of Greece by Makedonia, and relegated to Rhodos and a large force in and near the Crimean peninsula
Ptolemaics -- Good God, behold the Yellow Death!!

Allies:

Aedui -- Resurrected after the Arverni reduced them to a single province
Makedonia -- Again, resurgent after the KH and Ptolemaics knocked them back to Mytilene
Baktria -- Trying to force the issue with the Ptolemaics in the East
Arche Seleukia -- Also tried to force the issue with the Ptolemaics, but the AS have been bludgeoned between the Baktrian anvil and Yellow hammer

I'm a year away from reducing Mediolanum. I have a highly decorated FM outside Emporion that is likely one victory / province away from a Triumphus. I have a large force guarding Singidunum from the Getai, who are now also being challenged by my Makedonian allies. A powerful spy / assassin combination is roaming central Asia Minor, trying to incite Ptolemaic cities to revolt.

With mining centers nearing their full output in Iberia and Illyria, I'm bringing in about 50,000 mnai per turn. I have approximately 7-8 full stacks roaming the outer reaches of my territory, with relatively little need at the moment for significant levels of recruitment...the vast majority of expenditure is in the form of economic growth through construction.

But now I have a major threat to my southeast. I've been repeatedly beating back large Yellow armies at the bridges south of Lepki, with my forces composed of about 50% phalanx-type units (mercenary pezhetairoi and hoplites, native hoplites recruited from Sicily) and 50% Numidians. I got a little greedy a couple of years ago and pushed into Ptolemaic territory with a full army to raid Kyrene. That brought the Yellow Wrath down hard, in the form of three full stacks of classic Ptolemaic armies: elite phalanxes, Galatians, and hordes of phalangites. I tried to retreat back to the safety of my river crossings, but one of their armies caught up with me and mauled the crap out of Scipio's army. His army is now in tatters and I've finally made it to the relative safety of the river crossings -- but the battered force, now composed largely of Numidian skirmishers, won't be able to hold back the coming wave. I think I've awakened the western frontiers of the sleeping giant...

So...what would you do with this campaign?

1. Is it time to finish off the Arverni and link up with my Aedui allies to take on a very formidable Sweboz faction in the North woods?
2. Should I stand shoulder to shoulder with Makedonia and eliminate the Getai?
3. Or should I focus the bulk of my attention on a major confrontation with the Ptolemaic Empire?

If I choose the latter, things will have to move fast...I'm really concerned that the approaching armies will see Scipio's blocking force at the river for what it is (mostly Numidian skirmishers) and carve right through it on the way to Lepki and, if they're bold, to lands beyond. I could try to build another army of mostly mercenaries, but the pickings have been relatively slim around there these days. If I try to bring over a hoplite-heavy army from Sicily, it will take at least two years to raise the necessary forces and sail them southward. I have a large Roman army roaming through central Italy on rebel patrol...perhaps this could be shipped immediately to the southeast to deal with this menace. But that will also take alot of time...and time is growing short if I am to hold back the tide...

So...what would you do with this campaign? Looking forward to your ideas, comments, and critiques!!

[Ibrahim]

I'd play your allies against one another. In this case I'd maeuver to have all your allies (and you) turn on Makedonia. while that is happening, prepare an army to rece the Arverni..otherwise, save your strength for the ptolemaioi..

[duncan.gill]

From my way of thinking the problem that you have is that you have far too many fronts (either with allies or friends). Maintaining an alliance is a lot harder than owning the whole province!

I would suggest:
1. becoming/maintaining alliances with Maks and Ptoms (use ongoing small amounts of tribute to keep them loyal).
2. push through Gaul. Keep on pushing until you have wiped out the Avereni and then move onto the Aedui (who will then be fighting a two front war themselves) and then take out the Swezboz (I would push from both the south where you will get some good heavy infantry as well as from Iberia).
3. then fall upon the Getai from the north.
4. once they are out of the picture then attack the Maks and proceed east.

Always be aware that bottle necks (e.g. Byzantium) are good places to defend the entrance into whole sections of map - it is cheaper/easier than try to garrison a whole front.

I would make sure that you are only conquering one emeny at the time (you will just have to hold the Getai for a while and hope they don't inflict too much pain on you - garrison all your cities with slingers to take out the falxmen - they will chop your heavy infantry into little pieces if you try to take them on in the field).

[Long lost Caesar]

If I were you I'd go for the your last option: the Ptolies. By all means go after the Arverni and Getai if you really wanna, but with opposition as strong as the Yellow Death, well, it's not hard to see who the real enemy is

[satalexton]

I suggest that you consolidate your borders and restructure your armies.

With most of your holdings are working to their max economic capacity (namely those mines and ports), i suggest you spend your mnai in 'buying' Massalia and Tolosa from the arverni (if they refuse, just purge those greenskins). The land corridor along with the military ports will help greatly in shifting forces, especially when u have highways built.

I'm assuming that your full stacks are roman troops (consular armies). 7-8 full stacks is a bit overkill to be honest, along with the logistics strain of moving your armies and their replacement troops from italy. You generally really only need no more than 4 stacks at the very most (I only used 2 in my own romaioi save, 1 camillian 1 polybian). Station them in Italy when you don't need to use them/ the very occasional retrain. These will be your campaigning taskforces.

Along your border settlements, maintain using local troops at least 2 units of solid spearmen and 2 units of ARCHERS (not slinger, the fire arrows help a lot killing siege engines) as garrison. Use more accordingly in settlements on hostile borders. Also, in key locations (bridges, main paths etc) on your borders, set up forts (again using local troops) consisting of 2 line units, 2 levy type units and 2 range units (preferably archers, but javalin works wonders too). Their purpose would be to delay and whittle down any forces that come within your borders (forts take 4 turns to besiege, buying your 1 year of time, as well as grinding down a good deal of their troops if they choose to attack). You may use more along hostile borders, or even more layers of forts (those bridges in northern africa).

Keep local half-full stacks consisting of local field troops of that region led by mercenary generals to deal with rebels and/or defending against incursions. they're generally cheaper and easier to maintain compared to shipping troops from Italy, and respond faster to threats too. When not rebel swatting, keep them near key borders, it helps make your allies a little more faithful (and your enemies less aggressive...hopefully). Remember to keep swarms of spies, assassins and diplomats near your borders at all times and assassinate all spies and diplomats that come close/within your reach. If you have business to deal with the said diplomat, kill him the moment it is done. (I find they tend to invoke machinations and conspiracies against the human player). The only problem with this method of keeping your forces would be that africa yields you no proper troops for your local 'field army', just use one of the many stack you currently have instead, then gradually replace them with the greeks from sicily. You may keep more than one in each region if it's particularly hot.

Judging from the map u provided, along with the areas I advised your to purchase off the greenskins. Your forces will consist of (not including those border forts aka lime):
-Up to 4 stacks of Roman armies. (You really only need 2, 3 if you're really paranoid)
-7 stacks of local field armies. (half or less each in southern Iberia and west africa, 2 near Lepki to hold off the yellow fever, 1 in the northern Iberia, 1 between Tolosa and Massalia, 1 near Patavium and 1 in Macedonia)

You may seem to be fielding more stacks than before, but the cost to maintain would be considerably lower, and shorter supply lines. Use them with your forts and you find then very efficient in holding off the enemy stack after stack. Also, after roughly 10 years, you'll find your main italian armies filled with silver chevrons (just remember to merge in replacements as soon as you have the chance to, i find they gain exp faster than retraining...and more realistic too). If you want to expand your borders, prepare the garrison troops for the target region, use your elite roman army to spearhead the attack, then use the closest local field army to follow through while your Roman army regroups and merge in replacements.

Other than Tolosa and Massalia, I suggest you leave (or even ceacefire) the greenskins alone for the moment. Make peace with KH, you're not even bordering with them. As for the yellow fever, I suggest you do a long distance naval raid on their core settlements (enslave the whole lot, tear everything down). Withdraw the moment large forces come after you with pointy sticks. It'll will take quite some time for the Ptolemies to rebuild after each sack. Rinse and Repeat. (if you are very evil, i suggest giving them to AS after u sacked it)

[Tyrfingr]

Land at Kyrene and Egypt to start draining the Ptolies of their forces. The AI will probably come running for you, and meanwhile the enemies of Ptolies will have a chance to bounce back.

[konny]

The senior consul will ship to Africa with 6 Legions (1 1/2 stacks). 1/2 stack will remain in Lepki, the rest marches out to take and foritfy Augila, what is excellent for intercepting Egyptian armies from Kyrene on their way to Lepki. Later the forces from Lepki will be placed in Augila while the rest of the army moves on to Cyrene.

Usualy Alexandria and the like cities are hardly garrisoned, so a raid into the Nile Delta would b another option. Don't try to hold them, just burn everything to the ground.

The junior consul will move to Bononia with 4 Legions (1 stack) and start the conuest of Mediolanum and Tolosa. I would not establish further provinces in inner Gaul at the moment.

Send military able praetors to:

Hispania Citerior (the North): 2 Legions (1/2 stack), should raise local auxilia to bring it to one full stack

Illyria: 2 Legions (1/2 stack), should raise local auxilia from the Illyrians and Greeks to bring it to one full stack

Makedoina: No Romans. Should raise troops from the Greeks. By guarantee the Maks or Dacians or both will attack you in short. These troops can also be used to provide the African army with garrisons.

And make peace with KH!

[Tarkus]

Many thanks to all for your advice...great stuff! Keep it coming!
By the way -- for completeness' sake, I'm playing v1.0.

I don't have alot of time to respond now as I should be working --but a couple of quick questions:

1. Konny -- what do you recommend for the composition of my consular army tasked with advancing on Augila and Kyrene? Half Roman, half auxilia?

2. Satalexton -- I like your idea of a deep naval-based raid into Ptolemaic territory. I'm thinking about focusing on central Asia Minor (Sinope and nearby provinces) and possibly giving any raided provinces to Makedonia. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned about being too nice to the Maks since, as Konny says, they'll likely turn on me sooner rather than later.

3. I have no mini-mods installed on this EB build...I haven't had much luck with vanilla diplomacy and and thinking that some of the diplomatic work I would need to do here won't be very successful. Is it finally time to install the FD mod?

Looking forward to more comments!

[anelious phyros]

My opinion is you should take complete control of Greece with a big blow and then defeat your barbarian freinds. Because if you want to go aginst mr.Yellow I don't think you want them right there on your other borders. Besides Potelmy is preocupied with all the other factions there.

[konny]

1. Konny -- what do you recommend for the composition of my consular army tasked with advancing on Augila and Kyrene? Half Roman, half auxilia?

I use a base army of:

1x Accensi
1x Velites
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Equites

I call this a Legion even though it represents in fact 2 Legions (if you play with a 1:10 ratio, this is roughly 10,000 men). Two of it would make a full consular army with slots left for Extraordinarii and a second FM.

The problem is that you don't get any auxilia "of the line" in Africa. You can replace your skirmishers with Numidians (even though Velites are very strong) and use Numdian cavalry instead of Italian - what requires a lot of micromanagemt because of the right use of light mobile forces. So any serious fighting has to be done by troops you ship over from Italy.

The situation is much better in Greece. There you have Hoplites, Pletastai (use them as light flankers, not as skirmishers), cavalry and missle units - even though I would consider to bring over Numidians as skirmishers. When they attack, the Maks will certainly use the classical Hoplites as backbone of their army, not the Phalanx. In this case you'll be able to meet them on an equal footing without the need to leave a permanent Roman garrison there. Nevertheless Polybian Romans usualy do beat Hoplites 1vs1.

In Spain you have some very fine auxilia units, like the Iberian lights, Northern skirmishers and Asturian axemen. I would ship some Numidian archers and cavalry there to fill the last gaps in these ranks. I would leave one Legion (see above) there, just in case.

Leaves Gallia Cilsalpina: Romans, they will beat the Celts anytime and anywhere, only have to fear Gaesatae. I would spice up this army with some Sardinian archers: they create a bloodbath among Gaeroas, Lugoae and the like half-naked guys without the need of special protection against cavalry.

[Xurr]

I'd do the following

Take out these in the following order

1) Arverni
2) Aedui
3) Sweboz

Consolidate your armies after that campaign. Move a couple stacks down to the north African border with the Ptolemaics (these are for later). Take the rest of your troops and take out Makedonia. Once you finish off Mak start moving the North African troops in on Alexandria. This way you have a nice 2 pronged attack on the Ptolemaics and essentially just 1 front to worry about.

Note you probably wont have to worry much about the Getai, I find they tend to spend most of their time going north.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'd be content taking Mediolanium from the Arverni -- you will want easily defended borders; and if these are not too far from your core military centers all the better.

I'd also take Krete which can act as a fine base for supporting your war effort against the Ptolemaioi (you can use it to mount naval invasions; or just for refitting your navies...). Also: you will likely benefit from access to Cretan archers...

I would focus on the Mikra Asia frontier: leaving the Makedonians in place as an allied buffer state, drawing the Ptolemaioi military towards them rather than you. It's not about being nice to the Maks: it's about being seriously destructive to the Ptolemaians, and possibly have the Maks be eliminated for you by Ptolemaioi. This should make it easier to hold on to North Africa, as well as succesfully raid the Nile valley & Syria later on.

[Tarkus]

I use a base army of:

1x Accensi
1x Velites
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Equites

I call this a Legion even though it represents in fact 2 Legions (if you play with a 1:10 ratio, this is roughly 10,000 men). Two of it would make a full consular army with slots left for Extraordinarii and a second FM.

The problem is that you don't get any auxilia "of the line" in Africa. You can replace your skirmishers with Numidians (even though Velites are very strong) and use Numdian cavalry instead of Italian - what requires a lot of micromanagemt because of the right use of light mobile forces. So any serious fighting has to be done by troops you ship over from Italy.

So I take it that you recommend I put two full legions of native Romans near Lepki and hold the southeastern border? I like that idea...

The situation is much better in Greece. There you have Hoplites, Pletastai (use them as light flankers, not as skirmishers), cavalry and missle units - even though I would consider to bring over Numidians as skirmishers. When they attack, the Maks will certainly use the classical Hoplites as backbone of their army, not the Phalanx. In this case you'll be able to meet them on an equal footing without the need to leave a permanent Roman garrison there. Nevertheless Polybian Romans usualy do beat Hoplites 1vs1.

Very true indeed, Konny. I think I will put together a full army (stack) of Greek units, with allied Numidian skirmishers, and ship them via Athens to, maybe, Syria for some good old-fashioned Hellraising.

In Spain you have some very fine auxilia units, like the Iberian lights, Northern skirmishers and Asturian axemen. I would ship some Numidian archers and cavalry there to fill the last gaps in these ranks. I would leave one Legion (see above) there, just in case.

Leaves Gallia Cilsalpina: Romans, they will beat the Celts anytime and anywhere, only have to fear Gaesatae. I would spice up this army with some Sardinian archers: they create a bloodbath among Gaeroas, Lugoae and the like half-naked guys without the need of special protection against cavalry.

Sounds good. I have an urge to expand to Tolose and Burdigala in addition to Mediolanum, after which time I will hunker down on my western frontier and look eastward.

Tellos Athenaios:
Interesting idea re: Maks vs. Ptolemaioi. How would you propose that I actually do that? I would envision landing a large Roman force near the Mak-Ptolemaic border and stirring up the Yellow hive...but how would I get the two to actively engage?

I also like your idea of descending on Krete...great staging area for eastward raiding, etc...

Thanks again to everybody for your advice. I'll keep you posted on my progress...this is sounding like the beginnings of a bare-bones AAR!

[Tellos Athenaios]

The AI is usually very agressive to enemy armies that dare cross borders; going as far as to pursue them into enemy territory. Therefore if you have your diversive stacks conventiently located within marching distance of Makedonian territory you should be able to lure Ptolemaic forces into Makedonian territory.

With luck the Makedonians will respond to the Ptolemaioi pursuers likewise... In any case it should increase the amount of battles per turn between Makedonian and Ptolemaic forces; thereby whittling both powers down a bit further. And it's all about buying tine and diverting Ptolemaioi eyes...

[Tarkus]

The AI is usually very agressive to enemy armies that dare cross borders; going as far as to pursue them into enemy territory. Therefore if you have your diversive stacks conventiently located within marching distance of Makedonian territory you should be able to lure Ptolemaic forces into Makedonian territory.

With luck the Makedonians will respond to the Ptolemaioi pursuers likewise... In any case it should increase the amount of battles per turn between Makedonian and Ptolemaic forces; thereby whittling both powers down a bit further. And it's all about buying tine and diverting Ptolemaioi eyes...

Got it...I've seen this myself in other regions so I understand what you're saying.

Another (perhaps silly) question: Do I have to negotiate safe passage of my armies through allied Makedonian territory? Or does the alliance take care of that implicitly?

[Ibrahim]

The AI is usually very agressive to enemy armies that dare cross borders; going as far as to pursue them into enemy territory. Therefore if you have your diversive stacks conventiently located within marching distance of Makedonian territory you should be able to lure Ptolemaic forces into Makedonian territory.

With luck the Makedonians will respond to the Ptolemaioi pursuers likewise... In any case it should increase the amount of battles per turn between Makedonian and Ptolemaic forces; thereby whittling both powers down a bit further. And it's all about buying tine and diverting Ptolemaioi eyes...

I a not alone (hugs teddy bear)

[delra]

If I was mean, I'd write "restart on VH/M". :-)

But seriously:

I'd use Forced Diplomacy to rearrange the map a bit. I'd give Iraq and Syria back to AS. Everything east of Persia, India included, I'd split between Baktria and Parthia. It's a shame Saka got destroyed...

Hayasdan and Parthia should be removed from the steppes. Their cities there preferably given back to Sauromatae.

Greeks are fine where they are now. Go conquer (or buy) Byzantion, seal the strait with a fleet and forget they exist. Go conquer the rest of Africa (bordering Eleutheroi is lame and then go for Aedui and Arverni. Have fun.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Another (perhaps silly) question: Do I have to negotiate safe passage of my armies through allied Makedonian territory? Or does the alliance take care of that implicitly?

That will be difficult (AI is usually rather conservative about sharing things which may risk its military security) but would of course be best ...

[Flying Pig]

I had a similar situation in my campaign, and can only reccomend one action: Forward, the light brigade! I samshed citizen armies into Egypt and the powerful syracusian forces I had raised from and APR government into Judea, and drove them to their deaths with local auxilia then marian troops.

[Tarkus]

If I was mean, I'd write "restart on VH/M". :-)

I actually screwed up in that first post...I meant H/M, not M/H...thanks for reminding me of that!

I'd use Forced Diplomacy to rearrange the map a bit. I'd give Iraq and Syria back to AS. Everything east of Persia, India included, I'd split between Baktria and Parthia. It's a shame Saka got destroyed...

Hayasdan and Parthia should be removed from the steppes. Their cities there preferably given back to Sauromatae.

Greeks are fine where they are now. Go conquer (or buy) Byzantion, seal the strait with a fleet and forget they exist. Go conquer the rest of Africa (bordering Eleutheroi is lame and then go for Aedui and Arverni. Have fun.

Interesting ideas...I'm getting lots of options from all of you!

That will be difficult (AI is usually rather conservative about sharing things which may risk its military security) but would of course be best ...

Yeah, I was afraid of that. I've thought about giving Pella back to Makedonia as a gesture of good faith -- how can I call them allies if I occupy their historic capital?! I tried giving it back to them essentially for free, but the vanilla (and somewhat annoying) diplomacy failed. In this spirit, what about trading military access (and perhaps some cash) for their capital? Shrewd or crazy?

[Cullhwch]

Hmm, have you tried raiding the Ptolemies and hitting them where they don't expect it?

This is kind of a long-term strategy, but if I were you I would build a reasonably strong fleet (strong enough to defend itself against likely enemies) and take Kydonia and Salamis with a FM and the available mercenaries. Cyprus will be your springboard for raiding the cities of the Levant, Asia Minor, and Lower Egypt. Recruit mercenaries (preferably well-protected infantry) and regional troops in Cyprus (you can use levy hoplites and hippeis at the very least) and pump out enough spies to guarantee that any coastal city can be taken as soon as your men disembark. As a bonus, Ptolemaic armies in the west may turn eastwards to protect their homelands.

In all likelihood these settlements will be very poorly garrisoned, with a maximum of about four units. In any event, your spies will illuminate the easiest targets. Enslave or sack these poor bastards for cash and population bonuses. Destroy their MICs. Do not attempt to hold these settlements, as you will be pinned down and annihilated. Just sack and sail away. Let them retake undefended cities. If you've got enough spies, you can hit several closely-spaced cities in one turn. You can probably even take out Alexandria and Antioch and REALLY cripple their recruitment of elite units.

After doing this for a while and curtailing their military potential, a full-scale invasion becomes a real possibility.

[Baktrion Agema]

It is likely that the ptollies now have no navy due to the habbits of the AI. Create a large fleet of the cheapest ships, and send one to blokade each Ptolemaic port. This will seriously cut their income. Then wait for a few years, use the graphs to see when they have no money, and start a war of attrition in Africa with them, this will drain them and they will lose. Or, put the blokade in place and blitz the gauls.

Blokades aer an awsome tactic though, I made the Carthies go from 180000+ menia to bankrupt in 4 years!

[Cullhwch]

Do blockades still work even with the money script activated?

[Baktrion Agema]

I think they do, for a faction like Carthage that gets its money from sea trade, if you blokade them I dont think the script gives them enough money to compensate (this comes from blokading factions and watching the financial graphs, not from any knowlege of the script)

[Tarkus]

Hmm, have you tried raiding the Ptolemies and hitting them where they don't expect it?

Based on your and others' very similar advice, I'm in the process of putting together a large force in the Peloponnese to do exactly what you suggest. Per Konny's advice written earlier in this thread, I'll rely heavily on locally recruited Greek troops, with perhaps some native Roman units on board as well. I have a decent fleet -- two units of quadrireme and accessories -- so I should be able to protect my transports from what's left of the Ptolemaic navy I recently slapped around off the coast of Sicily.

I'm using the southern tip of the Peloponnese to recruit the desired mercs, as discussed in this other thread.

Thanks alot for the advice...wish me luck!