Elephants

[Amaris]

For about a week now I'm reading a book named "The history of warfare" written by the german historian Hans Delbrueck at the beginning of the 20th century.
What he writes about elephants in war is almost exactly the opposite of what elephants are in RTW and EB.

He claims that elephants are quite useless against heavy infantry, because they're going mad if hurted with spears and swords. They could only used against cavalry (they scare the horses) and gallic or germanic warriors who had never seen them. In addition african elephants are not afraid of asian ones, like in RTW, though this is claimed by an ancient historian (don't know who it was at the moment).
All in all elephants weren't such a powerful weapon and are far overpowered in RTW / EB.
Maybe this could be changed in later versions.

Greetings,
Amaris

[Mediolanicus]

I don't think they are that overpowered in EB actually.

They can't win a battle on their own, and if you leave them in a long melee they die quickly or start to run amok.
But they do kill a bit too much people to be realistic, I think.

BTW, this is only one source, it would be a bit quick to change everything because one historian has this opinion, no?

[Tyrfingr]

I only send elephants through the enemy lines to disrupt the formations, then I move in with heavy infantry.

[Aaldaemon]

For about a week now I'm reading a book named "The history of warfare" written by the german historian Hans Delbrueck at the beginning of the 20th century.
What he writes about elephants in war is almost exactly the opposite of what elephants are in RTW and EB.

He claims that elephants are quite useless against heavy infantry, because they're going mad if hurted with spears and swords. They could only used against cavalry (they scare the horses) and gallic or germanic warriors who had never seen them. In addition african elephants are not afraid of asian ones, like in RTW, though this is claimed by an ancient historian (don't know who it was at the moment).
All in all elephants weren't such a powerful weapon and are far overpowered in RTW / EB.
Maybe this could be changed in later versions.

Greetings,
Amaris

Elephants overpowered? They usually achieve 0 casualties against my armies - javelin barage or fire arrows(as a last resort - javelins are the way) and you get some very dead elephants... not to mention they cost an INSANE amount to recruit and maintain...no, not overpowered at all given you pay an arm and a leg for javelin fodder.

[pezhetairoi]

That's if you're up against unarmoured elephants. Armoured elephants scare the bejesus out of me because I once brought 6 units of peltastai against 2 units of kataphraktoi elephantikoi (with Roman cohorts in support), and the peltastai ran out of ammo, were worsted by the elephants, and then collapsed into my cohors who got demoralised at the moment the elephants crashed into them and sent them flying. Freaky.

[Aaldaemon]

That's if you're up against unarmoured elephants. Armoured elephants scare the bejesus out of me because I once brought 6 units of peltastai against 2 units of kataphraktoi elephantikoi (with Roman cohorts in support), and the peltastai ran out of ammo, were worsted by the elephants, and then collapsed into my cohors who got demoralised at the moment the elephants crashed into them and sent them flying. Freaky.

Well Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi cost 23000!!! to recruit and 5750 to maintain = that is one entire army cost right there... to put this in perspective Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai (one of my favorite cheap and cheerful units I always use) cost 1250 to recruit and 312 to maintain. I've done several tests 2 Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai vs 1 Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi, that's almost 1mnai vs 10mnai ratio... and I won _all_ the tests with my 2 cheapo units... from the best win that looked like this:


to the worst win:



I fail to see the overpowered part given the costs imho... not to mention the eles actually lose every single time. I won't deny that the eles are a great and fearsome unit, but they can be dealt with at insane cost differences - so I don't think they are overpowered.

[divulse123]

Quick and dirty answer to the historical issue. Elephants were present quite often in Hellenistic battles, and their efficacy is generally overestimated. When they were first introduced they were terrifying, but there are several easy (as easy as anything can be in a life or death situation I suppose) ways to limit their use, most of which are not built into RTW and EB. Caltrops being an example. They were very vulnerable to all forms of light infantry, and after a few encounters were most often used as a cavalry screen. The usual suspects on Hellenistic warfare give the appropriate ancient citations. Bar-Kochva, Sage, ect. Also, try Scullard's The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World.

[artaxerxes]

I actually think elephants are way too expensive, as their cost seems to prohibit any sort of real use of them in the games I play - by either me or the AI. But that may be due to my own inability when it comes to making money I just feel that since they used to be a mainstay of fx Seleucid armies (at some times at least), not being able to afford them 'till you've consolidated your empire and made it incredibly rich, is sorta weird, since kings like Antiochus I seemed capable to afford elephants given the economy of the seleucid empire at the start of the game - something that I'm definently not. And anyway I'm so bad at using them (possibly from having no experience since I never can afford to) that them being cheaper wouldn't actually overpower me.

But again, all this could be due to my inexperience and nothing to do with EB

[Amaris]

Quick and dirty answer to the historical issue. Elephants were present quite often in Hellenistic battles, and their efficacy is generally overestimated. When they were first introduced they were terrifying, but there are several easy (as easy as anything can be in a life or death situation I suppose) ways to limit their use, most of which are not built into RTW and EB. Caltrops being an example. They were very vulnerable to all forms of light infantry, and after a few encounters were most often used as a cavalry screen. The usual suspects on Hellenistic warfare give the appropriate ancient citations. Bar-Kochva, Sage, ect. Also, try Scullard's The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World.

Thanks...that's pretty well what the book I'm reading says, too.

Of course I don't expect that elephants are changed only in result of my word. It was simply a suggestion, because I wondered about elephants being as powerful as in vanilla RTW.

Greetings,
Amaris

BTW:

What was the matter with the forums yesterday ?
I wanted to read the FAQ and suddenly the software had changed, my account erased, and reading postings impossible if not logged in!

[Aaldaemon]

Thanks...that's pretty well what the book I'm reading says, too.

Of course I don't expect that elephants are changed only in result of my word. It was simply a suggestion, because I wondered about elephants being as powerful as in vanilla RTW.

Greetings,
Amaris

BTW:

What was the matter with the forums yesterday ?
I wanted to read the FAQ and suddenly the software had changed, my account erased, and reading postings impossible if not logged in!

The great TosaInu was upgrading the forum software... and yesterday was not the first time, might happen again today.

[johnhughthom]

The old saying "seen the elephant" I think sums up the psychological effect of elephants. If someone had never seen one before it would scare the bejesus out of them, whereas a veteran soldier would be more concerned with thinking how to take them down rather than "what the **** is that!!"

[Mediolanicus]

I actually think elephants are way too expensive, as their cost seems to prohibit any sort of real use of them in the games I play - by either me or the AI. But that may be due to my own inability when it comes to making money I just feel that since they used to be a mainstay of fx Seleucid armies (at some times at least), not being able to afford them 'till you've consolidated your empire and made it incredibly rich, is sorta weird, since kings like Antiochus I seemed capable to afford elephants given the economy of the seleucid empire at the start of the game - something that I'm definently not. And anyway I'm so bad at using them (possibly from having no experience since I never can afford to) that them being cheaper wouldn't actually overpower me.

But again, all this could be due to my inexperience and nothing to do with EB

Well, considering the amount of food they ate, the amount of care they needed during a campaign and the amount of training before the campaign, I would say they are actually quite cheap.

[johnhughthom]

I've also read they were given wine before battle, imagine how much wine you would need to get an elephant drunk

[Jolt]

My elephants are actually very useful. Instead of flanking enemy phalanx with cavalry, flanking them with elephants basically kills the unit immediatly (providing you send some assistence). I once managed to win a huge battle with minimal losses thanks to my elephants since they flanked the left-most unit and kept going til' the right end of the phalanx line.

[Aaldaemon]

My elephants are actually very useful. Instead of flanking enemy phalanx with cavalry, flanking them with elephants basically kills the unit immediatly (providing you send some assistence). I once managed to win a huge battle with minimal losses thanks to my elephants since they flanked the left-most unit and kept going til' the right end of the phalanx line.

True enough, the AI surely doesn't have a clue how to handle the situation when a skilled player is handling them... but that can be said of many other things - such as horse archers for example. All in all I like the elephants of EB, and I have no problem with them. Their historical effectiveness can be debated ad nauseam, and in truth I don't think one can implement them in RTW to mirror reality (or well perceived reality) very closely. Their main usefulness should obviously be (imho) a "cause fear" effect that is lessened the more elite/veteran the unit is or the more accustomed it is to elephants... can't be implemented quite well given engine limitations I think... Call me crazy but I'd give them more of a Drapanai feel... that is to say easier to kill in melee, but still a formation destroying, fear inducing, casualty making nuissance - the more so the rawer/less elite the unit is.

[king hannibal]

I find them more fun like they are as they rule cost a shit load and are the best units in the game and it alway fun to have them in oppostions army


if you don't like them mod them to be like RTR iberian conflict or just delete them from your games as there worthless on RTR and no fun if weakened

[Olaf The Great]

230 casualties on normal size. not one death.

Nuff said.

[Fondor_Yards]

Heh you want to see a lot of kills by an elephant unit? Play a bridge battle, once most/all of the enemy army is on the bridge, send the elephants across. Each attack kills like 20 men, got 1000 odd kills that way before, it's really funny. Especially since many of the bodies thrown in the air fell in the water, the river gets full of bodies.

[General Appo]

Yep, I´ve done that several timesd. Just hilarious when you´ve got 1000 bodies floating down the river. In one case I had some guys (non-elephants ones) figthing the enemy further downstream at a crossing, and after a while they were fighting in a stream of corpses. Magnificient.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

That's if you're up against unarmoured elephants. Armoured elephants scare the bejesus out of me because I once brought 6 units of peltastai against 2 units of kataphraktoi elephantikoi (with Roman cohorts in support), and the peltastai ran out of ammo, were worsted by the elephants, and then collapsed into my cohors who got demoralised at the moment the elephants crashed into them and sent them flying. Freaky.

This seems very odd seen as Nells are so vunerable to javs in EB, when I'm playing my Seleukid campaign, I get scared for my gold chevroned fully armoured Nells whenever I see javs. 2 vollies from 1 unit would prob be near to putting them in serious trouble, where as the same volleys against the armour on my gold chev'd Elite Thoratika, would just bounce straight off.

I never see the AI field Nells, a shame, in the SPQR mod you had to really chuck alot of javs at them. And they were scary when you played the Romans, as they warranted serious attention. You could always bring em down, but you would get sweaty for your nice Legion.

When I read about the way the Romans would concentrate missiles at them, I got the distinct idea they would concentrate alot of missiles at them, as in not just a few skirmishers letting off 2 volleys, but as much as the front line that was within reach.