Let's talk about cavalry

[QuintusSertorius]

This thread isn't about the use of cavalry, per se, there's already an excellent thread on that which taught me a lot in how to get the most out of their charge. Instead it's more about units - which are good, which aren't, which are good value, which aren't so much. I'm more interested in the regionals and mercenaries, than faction-specific ones. Partly because the faction-specific ones as Rome are pretty poor, but also because regionals and mercs have widest applicability.

I've been doing some experimentation by necessity in terms of what units I use of late, having expanded into Anatolia. Which means not so easy access to my regular choices.

I've been less than impressed with heavy cavalry to date. Thessalian heavies aren't too bad if they can charge, but they get knackered really easily, and in a press they're rubbish. Even with all that armour.

Used equites extraordinarii a few times and they seem alright, although again a couple of charges and they're spent.

I've only used Brihentin in one battle, and they didn't do very well either. I've heard lots of people talking in favourable terms about them, but I'm not seeing it yet.

Strangely, I've found medium and even light cavalry to be very good. Curepos (mercenary Gallic Leuce Epos) are my mainstay of late. Got javelins to harrass and annoy the enemy, good stamina so you can charge about the place for a while and stay out of contact, and their spears aren't half bad. The fact that they have spears and not swords means they do a reasonable job of charges to the rear, unlike Campanian equites (even if the latter are well-armoured).

Illyrian light cavalry pack a surprising punch, having AP weapons. And they've got enough stamina to still be able to chase down routing troops even after having made several formation-breaking charges to the rear.

I've recently discovered Eastern light cavalry, who are very fast indeed, and more than capable of taking on enemy light troops. Upgrade their kit and get them some experience and they're very handy. Not good for charges, but when they lurk behind enemy lines it does tend to shake the enemy up to see cavalry behind them.

Roman equites and Greek hippeis are rubbish. Not heavy enough to really be heavy, and again tire too fast.

So what's out there and what's good. And more importantly in responding, why are they good? Just giving the name of a unit isn't any use to anyone.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I like the Thraikioi Prodromoi. They have a pretty good charge, some armor, and they are fast. Decent in a melee battle with a lighter opponent, and fast enough to catch horse archers. Their armor makes it so that they don't get shot to pieces when they do chase HA's. Though they are a very good medium cavalry, you still have to be careful with them, as they will not last toe to toe with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi. These guys in combination with Skuda Baexdzhyntae (Scythian Riders) will make for an effective light/medium cavalry wing (the Scythians are a HorseArcher/Light Lancer hybrid), perfect for those pesky Phalanxes, and all that eastern medium and skirmisher cavalry that you encounter.

[Fondor_Yards]

Scythian Nobles are a nice heavy cavalry unit for factions that don't really have one of their own. They aren't lancers, but are better in a longer meele then most other heavy cavalry *minus cataphracts.* Basicly they are Brihentin but with better stats.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hippakontistai are good value for money. Got that nice kopis sword + don't tire quickly.

Thessalian heavy cavalry, Brihentin -- how can anyone not like them? Alround excellent cavalry in my opinion; of course when you get to Anatolia you will see a lot of people with excellent and even better cavalry are up against your Thessalians & Brihentin. I am talking about Hetairoi, and Kinsmen cavalry. Of course as most heavy cavalry goes it's wise to use them on the enemy heavy cavalry & foot skirmishers first; by that time there should be a fair few enemy units which need very little convincing to break...

However do not think that Brihentin are best value for money as far as Gaullish cavalry can go: that prize should go to Leuce Epos. That's quality skirmisher cavalry/hippeis style, which is incredibly useful if you need to mop up large numbers of routing foes.

Personally I have never been very impressed with Hippeis Asiatikoi but then again I had access to Mada Asabara at those times (for those who don't know Mada Asabara are a bit better for the same cost, however less wide AOR).

I have also found Hippeis to be quite decent, but you really do need to keep them in reserve.

Thechnically speaking you can't call them cavalry but chariots are also pretty awesome. Cindainh can give any cavalry unit up to Brihentin quality (and I should know as it's how I killed quite a few Aedui Vergobrets) a beating... the enemy will not live to tell... Just need to have the chariots do the total chaos, and something with a pointy stick and perferably rubbish in melee (because you will indeed need very little) do the killing. So I find the combination Cindainh + Sotaroas will be quite effective in dispatching enemy medium/light cavalry quickly.

Scythed chariots on the other hand are absolute murder against hoplite style infantry... (Haven't yet tried those against cavalry, but should work also...)

Apart from those, the Prodromoi style cavalry never fails to deliver in my experience; often outfighting seemingly superior opponents. Similarly the Lonchphoroi never cease to amaze.
Of course there are also the various flavours of Horse achers close by...

[jhhowell]

The Thessalians and Eq. Extraordinarii are actually at the low end of heavy cav - the good stuff is all in the east. Kinsmen are IMHO the best heavy cav in the game, all-around. They're not as good as true cataphracts, but they have a very wide AOR and I think most factions can get them in level 4 regional MICs (1.0 AS could, anyway). I find them more cost-effective than my factional cataphracts, too. A historical Rome won't see much of them, though, I think Rome only ever took a couple of the relevant provinces.

AP lances are a requirement to be worth using, IMHO, so Prodromoi are as light as I'll ever use. Rome may as well use the Illyrians, I guess, but they're so poorly armored that factions with real cavalry options shouldn't bother.

Horse archers are incredibly awesome, of course, but probably not much use to a historical Rome campaign. In 0.8 there was a mercenary available up in the Noricum area (not sure if it was the exact province). And anyone can go to the Crimea and get Scythians of several flavors. A lot of people like the Riders (the HA/light lancer combo MerlinusCDXX mentioned) but I don't like them. They're too light to be any good as lancers, so I just take the basic Scythian Horse Archers and use them for what they're good at - and pay a lower upkeep cost, too. Those (and their Armenian clones) have been the backbone of my 1.0 Hayasdan campaign, almost never taking losses and accumulating 7-8 experience levels. But as I said, not exactly a Roman type of unit as I understand the history...

There are Scythian nobles or some such at higher regional MIC levels, IIRC those are a HA/medium lancer hybrid. Not sure how useful they are; when I use lancers, I want them to be extremely heavily armored (Kinsmen/cataphract type of thing, ideally).

The Armenia region has a HA-heavy mercenary mix, IIRC 4 Sarmatian HA, 2 Scythian Riders, plus the usual infantry options. That may have changed in 1.1, but probably not too much.

The eastern factions all have great factional cav too, but I don't think any of them are available as regionals to other factions.

Back in 0.8, I found the Numidian jav-cav very helpful as Rome. Not sure if it's still true, but the Numidian units were just a bit better than their Greek equivalents (javelin skirmishers or cavalry), and one assumes got a bit of a bonus on desert maps. They suck compared to HA (just as Eq. Extraordinarii suck compared to Kinsmen), but for western units they're as good as you're going to get, I think.

[Ibrahim]

the Hetairoi rule I say-then again, I play with them the most after the E.Extraordinarii.

[QuintusSertorius]

Again, don't you find heavies are useless after a couple of charges? As in too tired to make any more effective ones?

[Fondor_Yards]

Not at all. I find it easier to have them actually charge with lowered lances when they are tired. Sure they won't kill as much in their charge, but I don't use my heavy cavalry to kill with their charge, I use them to break enemy units.

[Ludens]

Again, don't you find heavies are useless after a couple of charges? As in too tired to make any more effective ones?

It's an issue with "lesser" heavy cavalry units. However, for me the point of the charge is the morale impact, not casualties (off course the former is assisted by the latter). I also as a rule don't charge units that are not wavering or uncertain. I think this historical.

BTW, what makes hippoakontistoi so great? They are good rout-chasers, to be sure, but I find their kill-rates somewhat low. They are lousy chargers, and their armour is too little to last in close-combat.

[QuintusSertorius]

You can get a fair deal of the morale impact without even charging home, though. Just having some of my light cavalry wandering around behind the enemy frontline tends to bring up "Concerned about exposed flank" in their condition fairly quickly.

[Aaldaemon]

Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Sarmatian Noble Horse-Archers). Recruitable by Romans too... Dahyu Siraca = one place you can get them... but well playing historically you'll never get there no?

These are my standard recruitable demons of death in my campaign... Not the best melee cavalry, but competent enough... they're basically mobile armored artillery. Heavy horse archers are in my opinion the very best and most versatile type of unit in game. As a Romani player you can just set up your battleline far far from the enemy, then flank them with these horsies, have them move behind the enemy battle line, fire arrows away at the advancing enemy behinds... then when you run out of arrows, or they engage your battle line....chaaaaaaaaaaaarge! =devastation. If they send cavalry against you...you can always kite it for a while peppering it with arrows before turning on them and spearing them to death... even when playing without retraining like you do, these babies will harvest exp chevrons, and when they're at 3silver+............................DEATH. To put it simply... an army melts like chocolate under their arrow fire... then you make chocolate shish kebab.

EDIT: Simple test: 1 unit of scythian nobles(AI) = decent cavalry vs 1 my Sarmatian nobles. Did nothing truly fancy, just kite /arrow fire then in the end /charge.



Now this result is actually very bad... because this is a unit with no initial blacksmith upgrade or any exp... after upgrades and exp... as I said... chocolate shish kebab.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't like archers of any stripe, and horse archers sound like far too much in-battle micromanagement. I'm an infantry commander at heart.

[Aaldaemon]

I don't like archers of any stripe, and horse archers sound like far too much in-battle micromanagement. I'm an infantry commander at heart.

So was I... so was I... but I have seen the error of my ways.

[konny]

I am not impressed by the Brihentin either. Neither in my Sweboz nor in my Roman campaigns had the Gaulish nobles been able to create much havoc upon my forces. That is much different when facing Carthagians or Greeks. Their bodyguards are something to fear.

Another unit what I do respect are the Thracians: probably the best light cavalry when it comes to fight infantry. My Epeirote enemies use them to a great effect.

Talking about Italians: Equites Romani are useless for their price. They preform a bit better than Hippeis but for the price of Thessalians and the like. Extraordinarii and Campanians are definitly worth their money. I found that the Campanians is one of the best unit to cut down routing enemies (you need a widespread formation and swords seem to be more suitable than lances). Nevertheless, your best cavalry playing the Romans are the Equites Consulares.

Another excellent light cavalry in the West would be the Numidians. Playing Cartahgo, I found that I better do not send Iberian light cavalry 1vs1 against them. They can be real cavalry killers when the enemy is not to heavyly armoured.

Iberian cavalry, Leuce Epos, Cantabrians, Ligurians and the other Western cavalry preforms more or less as you would expect from them. But Ridnaz are useless (in particular given their price).

[QuintusSertorius]

Are Ridnaz those Celto-Germanic horse?

[Aaldaemon]

Are Ridnaz those Celto-Germanic horse?

I think he means Ridonez - the Germanic light cavalry. I don't like them over much - and I've come to love cavalry - so I doubt you will...

I've played the Romans a lot, and my favorite cavalry (discounting the ones you get after reforms) were always the Extraordinarii... although I've used Brihentin a lot more due to some wierd roleplay reasons. I don't think you'll find a better cavalry than the Extraordinarii... The obvious better cavalry troops are out of bounds to the Romani... no Hetairoi or Cataphracts... so as far as I'm concerned the Extraordinarii is IT - if you want to use cavalry at all.

[Tellos Athenaios]

BTW, what makes hippoakontistoi so great? They are good rout-chasers, to be sure, but I find their kill-rates somewhat low. They are lousy chargers, and their armour is too little to last in close-combat.

They're cheap. They throw javelins (if anything is lethal, it's a javelin); and they have got a Kopis sword.

That means: when in melee they stand somewhat better chance than comparabe skirmisher cavalry & they'll kill more/faster when pursuing enemies.

Also: nothing like (apart from chariots & co) a unit of those circling around the enemy lines throwing javelins in their back.

Being cheap means they are a great asset hunting down all those pesky Akontistai rebels that litter the countryside from Souther France to Northern Egypt... Also AS, Maks, Epeiros and KH get some pretty nice looking skins for very little money that way too...

And, for an early game the Hippakontistai are the cheap man's Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

A unit which I, regrettably and admittedly very embarassingly for someone who uses those guys often, forgot to mention. So to give them their due credit: if you love Hippeis Tarantinoi and/or make good use out of Hippakontistai already ... you will adore those. Arguably among the most versatile cavalry. Not as heavy nor able to stand up against 'proper' hetairoi; but an awful lot faster than those as well and considerably more affordable as a unit. Combine them with a unit of Lonchphoroi and you will have a truly effective cavalry wing ready to dispatch much heavier opponents as well as succesfully catch & kill the abundant light horse types (even horse archers!) found nearly everywhere. Stick in a few Prodromoi for good measure too...

On the use of Brihentin: they generally fail to deliver in the hands of the AI, because they are by no means the nearly unstoppable tanks of the East. But in the hands of a human who does not mind to watch his timing as well as be a bit less reserved towards exploiting enemy stupidity they will make for a terribly effective cavalry force. Effective enough, at least to destroy whatever Romans can field 'natively'; as well as breaking Carthaginian cavalry (though you do need to make sure it's not the Brihentin on their own there...) more easily.

Also: they look awesome.

[Ludens]

They're cheap. They throw javelins (if anything is lethal, it's a javelin); and they have got a Kopis sword.

Neither their javelins nor kopis kill much in my experience, unless it is running away. I've charged them in the back of exhausted, pinned hoplites without getting more than two kills. Javelins kill only slightly more per volley. However, I agree they are good for encircling actions.

[QuintusSertorius]

Are swords better for killing routers? And what about other cavalry? I've heard lances are generally rubbish in melee, what about spears? Are you always better off switching to a secondary weapon, of you have it, in melee?

[konny]

I think he means Ridonez - the Germanic light cavalry. I don't like them over much - and I've come to love cavalry - so I doubt you will...

Yes, these.

[Cambyses]

I mostly use heavy cavaly just for breaking enemy infantry formations also. They are more effective than light cav at this purpose due to their heavier impact.

Contrary to what someone else said above, the rider type cavalry can be very efficient on the battlefield. The key is to weaken and exhaust the enemy before charging home though. Thats why Riders are popular because you can achieve both functions with the same unit.

And this is true of any cavalry at any time. If the enemy isnt at least very tired, wait until they are before charging with a single unit. Obviously running off skirmishers is a different story.

Personally Im very fond of Dahae Riders.

But the point, to my mind of heavy cavalry is to force the enemy to break quicker. You can engage down the whole length of the line with infantry and no doubt eventually win by slugging it out and wandering light cav along behind the enemy. But using several units of heavy cavalry you can claim a massive and powerful numerical advantage in one part of the field that enables you to win quickly and with low casualties, then turn the victorious part of your army on the remainder of the enemy and wrap up a nice clean win.

Whenever Ive used the Romans in a historically accurate way they always take much higher casualties than their eastern rivals, including any Greek faction.

[QuintusSertorius]

Whenever Ive used the Romans in a historically accurate way they always take much higher casualties than their eastern rivals, including any Greek faction.

Actually, I don't find this to be the case at all. Romans high frequency of armour, along with lots of units having high morale means losses are rarely that big. Facing almost anyone who isn't the Dacians or Iberians (lots of AP weapons...) in an equal fight I usually get 5-15% casualties, against 95-100% for them. Most of the kills occur during the rout anyway.

[konny]

Whenever Ive used the Romans in a historically accurate way they always take much higher casualties than their eastern rivals, including any Greek faction.

That is true when facing massive fronts of pikemen. You don't have any unit suitable to pin the phalanx, save for the Camillan Triarii, while the Principes and Hastati go for the flanks.

I use a somewhat archaic method: the ram. I order Principes or Pedites Extraordinarii to run to a point behind the phalanx (preferable at the joint between two phalanx units), and when the got mixed with the first line of pikemen I order to attack the phalanx. Works well against low level phalanx, but is a no-go against any elite.

Another possibility is to attack a formation:

Spear - Phalanx - Phalanx - Spear

by having the Hastati attacking the spearmen and wait until the phalanxes turn around to attack the flanks of the Hastati. That will open a gap through which the Principes can sneak and start killing phalangites. Casualties will be high in both scenarios.

Against any other opponents the Roman infantry preforms very well (and cavalry as expected). Make sure you make good use of your Velites too; they are one of the best units in the "crappy skirmishers"-class and are able to rout Lugoae and the like on their own - provided they have the oppertunity to pepper them with javelins before the melee.

[The General]

Iberi Lanceari are the underperformers of the year [2007, afair].

I'm still bitter at them for their lack of capability to bring down a single unit of Sotaroas in one battle. (I had two units of the Lanceari charge a single unit of Sotaroas engaged in firing arrows in the rear, and in the charge I lost seven horsemen against three dead Sotaroas, and in the following ten-or-so seconds I lost eleven more horseman, and only four Sotaroas died. What are cavalry good for if they can't impale armourless troops in an open formation from the behind, eh?)

FMs tend to be AWSM! because of the über resilience (lots of armour, defence skill, discipline, moral, etc.), cataphracts have good staying power due to their armour (duh), light cavalry (javelins+high chage value -type) is pretty nifty, especially price considered, but of course, the best cavalry type there is... Is the horse archer, and in particular the rider-model. Whittle down your enemies with your arrows, exhaust them by forcing them to follow you while barely tiring yourself because of very good stamina, and then charge home from several directions with a little of micromanagement and voilà! Dinner's served. This works especially well with the eastern factions whose FMs tend to be either cataphracts (who can take out enemy FMs/charge units from the get-go) or cataphract HAs (who're like Horse Archer mk.IV*).

Also, let's state the obvious once more, combined arms (tend to be) are better than masses of a single unit. A few units of Leuces Epos with Brihentin/Remi Mairepos/Marhathegnoz is a pretty solid cavalry wing for a (western) barbarian faction, especially the Sweboz whose FMs fight as heavy infantry.

Can't say much about medium cavalry, for some reason I'ven't fielded them en masse, probably because I usually just either want HA/LC, or some "proper" heavy-hitting cavalry (I sure likes me sum armoured cavalrée).

That concludes my random ramblage of the day concerning cavalry use in EB, I haven't even played EB really for quite a bit (haven't played anything really for a few months, it's so darn hot [yes, even here in Finland]).


*mk.I = [sword/dagger-]horse archer, mk.II = lancer-horse archer, mk.III = [regular] cataphract-HA

[The Celtic Viking]

Oh, I love my Cidainh. In fact, in my Arverni game, I got one of those settlements on the western shore (forgot the name) and built up the MIC there from the start just to have some way for me to get them. Otherwise I would've lost them way too early in the first reform.

The good thing about Cidainh is that they absolutely slaughter any cavalry, even when unassisted in a frontal clash - heavily armoured, eastern style cavalry bites the sour grape against these guys. Once the flank is won, they can wheel around behind the enemy's lines where they brutally rape the enemy's morale, through the scares enemy infantry trait, javelins in the back and the threat of a charge. Plus, they inspire your own troops as well, which makes them absolutely awesome.

I don't have much experience with other real cavalry units than Brihentin, Leuce Epos and Ridanz, and as they have all already been argued for, there's no need for me to chip in. Not that Cidainh weren't already mentioned as well, but they really deserve it considering the crap they've taken in earlier versions.

[Olaf The Great]

To that guy with the Iberi Lancearii
Okay Sotaroas are Archer-Spearmen, ie-anti cavalry, and Lancaerii are also a bit under-powered, along with the Roxolani Archer-Cataphract(seriously, full cataphract armour yet only 26 defense..) I, being the
Asshole I am, beefed them up considerably.

[The General]

To that guy with the Iberi Lancearii
Okay Sotaroas are Archer-Spearmen, ie-anti cavalry, and Lancaerii are also a bit under-powered, along with the Roxolani Archer-Cataphract(seriously, full cataphract armour yet only 26 defense..) I, being the
Asshole I am, beefed them up considerably.

I do know that they're Celtic Archer-Spearmen, but, still, charge in the rear of one unit of them, by two units of Lanceari - and I lose more men in the charge, before the Sotaroas take out their spears?

In reality, the Lanceari would've probably ridden through the unit, impaling the poor Celts from the behind while doing so, and the Celtic unit would've been broken. That, or the Sotaroas would've faced the Lanceari with their spears to try and fend off them (rather than let themselves be charged in the rear). Also, the Lanceari have 30-or-so defence, with quite a bit of armour, which, imho, should reduce their vulnerability to spears somewhat... Or so one would think.

Meh, less whining, more discussion.

[Obelics]

I love the Brihentin in the West, they are like gallic warriors on horse, so they have that nice 2.25 letalithy long sword in melee... im sure a long sword is more useful than a short one from the elevated place of your horse... I like very much good melee fighting cavalry.

also i noticed in my experience, than a Curepos or Leuce Epos, with 1 or 2 silver chevron, would stand in melee forever... at last in the 0.81 version of EB, i dont know in 1.1.

Always from my 0.81 experience, best cavalry in all asia minor and greece, were the Tracian Prodromoi Mercenary, they are fast, Armour Piercing melee, good armor, good resistence at all, and they are not so much expensive as other heavy cavalry.

Regarding Roman post marian cavalry, i noticed that Gallic Equites are very good for charge, while German Equites are better for melee. So i suggest to have 2 units of German cavalry for "dangerous task" as supporting infantry melee, and 1 unit of Gallic Equites to keep in reserve and use for devasting charges. Regarding the Iberian Equites, i havent tryed them too much.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I'll talk about one light horse unit that in all honesty and reality sucks for any practical use, but also one that I deep inside wanted to be kick-ass:



I envision for myself the nomadic, lightly armoured horse-archer killers, not only armed with javelins but also a vicious axe and a small buckler allowing them to be surprisingly tough and resilient, and to be something of an "Ekdromoi", but on horse-back. Ekdromoi hoplites were meant to be the bane of peltasts, and this light cavalry unit is meant to be the bane of horse-archers, thanks to a combination of light armament, swift horses and skill with close-quarter weaponry. These Dahae would embodify the fearsome steppen warrior. Disorganized, rude, crude and robbers at heart. Yet brave almost to the border of bravado, and absolutely terrifying. These guys raid villages for breakfast, they butcher entire caravan trains and not even nomadic royal clans nor chieftains bare to stand their presence. Absolutely lovely in all positive sense.

Yet, in-game they suck arse

[Obelics]

I'll talk about one light horse unit that in all honesty and reality sucks for any practical use, but also one that I deep inside wanted to be kick-ass:



I envision for myself the nomadic, lightly armoured horse-archer killers, not only armed with javelins but also a vicious axe and a small buckler allowing them to be surprisingly tough and resilient, and to be something of an "Ekdromoi", but on horse-back. Ekdromoi hoplites were meant to be the bane of peltasts, and this light cavalry unit is meant to be the bane of horse-archers, thanks to a combination of light armament, swift horses and skill with close-quarter weaponry. These Dahae would embodify the fearsome steppen warrior. Disorganized, rude, crude and robbers at heart. Yet brave almost to the border of bravado, and absolutely terrifying. These guys raid villages for breakfast, they butcher entire caravan trains and not even nomadic royal clans nor chieftains bare to stand their presence. Absolutely lovely in all positive sense.

Yet, in-game they suck arse

man, i know what you feel, im so fond of this guys that every time i think of them, i start to suffer...
so not being an official team member, i can over-expose myself, and i dare to say: "Cmon Team, lets give to these guys at last the defensive stats (armour+defence) of the Curepos and the Leuce Epos, with the Armour Piercing Axe, and at last 18 ammo of javelins... what i dream is a dahae robbers, who are the most "cheep and reliable" cavalry in the East, as the Curepos/leuce Epos are about the most cheep and reliable cavalry in the West... also to prevent other faction to spawn them, id like they have low-Upkeep just for the Pahlava or some other Easterns, while for other faction they have hight upkeeps.
Lets try to look at the stats: 0 ARMOUR and 1 (I say 1) SHIELD..., also, defensive ability is just 7, while the leuce Epos has 11 of defencive ability, 5 armour and 2 shield.
So if i think the Leuce Epos has the Helmet, then i would give the dahae at last 3 of armour, or even 4, but i would pump their defensive ability to at last the same or more than the Leuce Epos, 12 or 13, and given the dimension of the shield (i know it's just a leather or cow-skin shield, but i would consider their ability to fight and their wilderness as an improving factor) id give 3 for it...
Now lets look at the morale, they have an awesome morale of 8 (i sayd 8) while the LeuceEpos has 11... (were these guys some cowards? i say at last the same morale)
Also i would improve their numbers... why not 120 instead of just 100, they would be a more fearsome appearence at the horizon...

anyway in my own version of the game ive modified at last the javelin ammo for them, but that's is just a "personal" modification... and ive not that knowledge of the steppes, to arguing and defend my requested improvement in an historical debate