Let's talk about battle formations

[QuintusSertorius]

I have to admit having played Romans for so long, my only alternative to their checkerboard is a single, long line. Which isn't too subtle and has no reserves, and is also a little anachronistic.

So what formations are there that work, without being exploits of the AI?

How might you deploy this army:
4 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Theurophoroi
1 x Galatian Tindanotae
1 x Karian Uazali

2 x Peltastai
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Sphendenotai

2 x Hetairoi (Family members)
1 x Asian Light Cavalry
1 x Thracian Prodromoi
1 x Thracian Light Cavalry

Against the likes of the Seleukids or Ptolemies?

[Ibrahim]

I have to admit having played Romans for so long, my only alternative to their checkerboard is a single, long line. Which isn't too subtle and has no reserves, and is also a little anachronistic.

So what formations are there that work, without being exploits of the AI?

How might you deploy this army:
4 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Theurophoroi
1 x Galatian Tindanotae
1 x Karian Uazali

2 x Peltastai
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Sphendenotai

2 x Hetairoi (Family members)
1 x Asian Light Cavalry
1 x Thracian Prodromoi
1 x Thracian Light Cavalry

Against the likes of the Seleukids or Ptolemies?

use the hetairoi on one flank (w/thrakians), l.cav on other. put the kelthellenikoi in th vcenter of the infantry line, then put thureophoroi on their flanks. put the tindonetae on the far right (or with the cavalry), and the uazali on the far left

then, send the peltasts and sphens ahead and pelt the enemy (keep them close to your main line), and put the kretikoi in the rear (they shoot at select targets in the line and wind them up). use the sphens on armor, the pelts on the weak stuff. put the pelts in the rear when they have no ammo left. they will be your reserve.
I try to move the men in a U shape, with the open part facing the enemy-make contact with a hail of javelins (they are kelto hellenikoi) and charge: thureos and uazalai outflank and hit the enemy on their right-rear, the other flanck the left-rear. cavalry mops up enemy (hopefully mauled by sphens), then goup up and hit the main line in the rear= mass panic. use the L.Cav to cover your left, and then to persue the enemy after they run.

[QuintusSertorius]

Sounds a lot like the tactics I already use, though I usually have the peltasts on the wings of the line outside the theurophoroi taking part in the battle line.


Just to illustrate, this was my usual formation:

----Sph------------------Sph

Pel-Theur-CH-CH-CH-CH-Theur-Pel

Gal--------KA-----KA---------Kar

H.Cav------------------------H.Cav
L.Cav------------------------L.Cav
L.Cav

I'll give that a try, it's probably a more realistic use of peltastai than as medium infantry (even if they're very good at it).

[Aaldaemon]

I play using different unit sizes than you do, and as such battle dynamics are different (especially maneuvering)... but what about this formation for fun:



It can also be more in depth than in this quick screen.
EDIT: Gah the way I wrote stuff looks messed up when post is shown but I guess you get the idea...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A L Cav
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thrac L Cav
------------------------------------------------Thure---------H Cav H Cav Prod
-------------------------------------------Celt H-----Peltastai
-------------------------------------Celt H
-------------------------------Celt H----------spend--kretans
-------------------------Celt H------------------------kretans
-------------------Thure------------------------------spend
Peltastai / Gal Tinda
Uazali


Now I'm not a big fan of this army composition... but the general idea is concentrate all cavalry on one flank - I would use a devastating mass charge on that flank, but i guess in this case there should be a bit of javelin softening in the back of the enemy before the charge...

Formation should make the tactics obvious - central engagement with delayed engagement on the left, followed by envelopment from your left wing infantry... mass cavalry charge on the right while your missle troops can be used to fire at best possible targets - from softening enemy cavalry to firing at the side / back of infantry engaged on your left flank... you can also move your cavalry to support the left envelopment as well... tons of options if you're willing to maneuver.

Now this is a proper tactic for a proper heir of Alexandros (not the best I admit but fun :))

[QuintusSertorius]

Is that Medium unit size? There's so few men!

[Aaldaemon]

Yes, I always use that unit size - 60men to phalanx, 40for most infantry, 26or so for cavalry... I used to play RTW multiplayer lots when it came out so I got used to this unit size... the way battles play on this unit size is quite different from battles with larger numbers... and I much prefer this size - the obvious downside is less cinematic battles though.

[V.T. Marvin]

With the same army composition I would use probably the same formation as you did - I mean Quintus - , with the exception of putting peltasts in front of your front-line (spread rather thin to cover the whole frontage) and use them the same way as you would normally use velites - to pepper advancing enemy with javelins, then retreat behind the main line, then reform and use for reserve/flanking/pursuit-of-routers.

But it is precisely your selection of units I have a slight problem though.
Overall, your army composition seems to me as well optimized to be the most efficient.
But I would (for the hell of it) aim for more "historically-plausible" composition. I mean, first, celtic and hellenic units should probably fight in two distinct contingents, rather than being mixed together (something like the Roman legion and socii ala). Second, for a hellenic faction the army seems to me little bit too cavalry-heavy. Third, I miss those lousy low-tier militia troops, who usually formed a considerable part of almost any army in history. Therefore, what I would do as my Pergamene army line-up would be something like that:

.......---Celtic Slingers---...----Pelt--- ----Pelt---.....................
.........................................................................................
.......---CSp-- ---HKH---....--HH-- --CH-- --CH--......................
.......................................-----Akontistai-----......---KWb---...
-GalTind-...-CeltGen-..................................--GrGen--.............
.........................................................................................
--CeltCav--...............................................--GrCav--. ...........

******************
Pelt - Peltastai
CSp - Celtic Spearmen (as a lower class than Hoplitai Kelto-Hellenikoi)
HKH - Hoplitai Kelto-Hellenikoi
HH - Hoplitai Haploi (as a lower class than Classical Hoplites)
CH - Classical Hoplites
GalTind - Gallatian "Wildmen" - optional, just for the sight of them (could be replaced by Celtic Swordsmen)
CeltGen - Celtic General - a client ruler leading his men as an ally of the King of Pergamon
CeltCav - Celtic Cavalry - either light or heavy. Light should suffice for hunting routers
GrGen - Greek General
GrCav - Greek Cavalry - preferably light just for hunting routers
KWb - one or two units of Uazali, or Karian Warband, as allied flanking force, great to cut down phalanxes from behind
******************
Rationale: To make things more challenging = more fun. Smaller stack, weaker forces, two distinct contingents. Less cavalry.
Not as effective as your line-up, but that should not mind. BTW - I am indebted to you for your Guide to becoming a true Roman and I have used your prescribed army composition both in RTR and in EB and never regretted that. And it was not the most effective mix of roman units either. But it was both good enough, and historical and FUN! So I would suggest to invent something similar for other factions (like your brand new Pergamon) too! Just do not be lazy!

[Aaldaemon]

Overall, your army composition seems to me as well optimized to be the most efficient.

Not by a long shot imho. His is a fun army composition, in no way the most efficient.

I like your army btw, great fun composition that. Just without the wildmen... I have nothing against male nakedness, but I just don't like using them... rather use some Anatolian hillmen or the like for fun. (fun>efficiency hehe)

[V.T. Marvin]

Just without the wildmen... I have nothing against male nakedness, but I just don't like using them... rather use some Anatolian hillmen or the like for fun. (fun>efficiency hehe)

I would avoid them too, that is why I have suggested using galatian swordsmen instead (to keep the gallic flavour of that contingent).

Anyway, thanks for your appreciation!

OMG!!! 200th post!