Let's talk about cavalry

[QuintusSertorius]

This thread isn't about the use of cavalry, per se, there's already an excellent thread on that which taught me a lot in how to get the most out of their charge. Instead it's more about units - which are good, which aren't, which are good value, which aren't so much. I'm more interested in the regionals and mercenaries, than faction-specific ones. Partly because the faction-specific ones as Rome are pretty poor, but also because regionals and mercs have widest applicability.

I've been doing some experimentation by necessity in terms of what units I use of late, having expanded into Anatolia. Which means not so easy access to my regular choices.

I've been less than impressed with heavy cavalry to date. Thessalian heavies aren't too bad if they can charge, but they get knackered really easily, and in a press they're rubbish. Even with all that armour.

Used equites extraordinarii a few times and they seem alright, although again a couple of charges and they're spent.

I've only used Brihentin in one battle, and they didn't do very well either. I've heard lots of people talking in favourable terms about them, but I'm not seeing it yet.

Strangely, I've found medium and even light cavalry to be very good. Curepos (mercenary Gallic Leuce Epos) are my mainstay of late. Got javelins to harrass and annoy the enemy, good stamina so you can charge about the place for a while and stay out of contact, and their spears aren't half bad. The fact that they have spears and not swords means they do a reasonable job of charges to the rear, unlike Campanian equites (even if the latter are well-armoured).

Illyrian light cavalry pack a surprising punch, having AP weapons. And they've got enough stamina to still be able to chase down routing troops even after having made several formation-breaking charges to the rear.

I've recently discovered Eastern light cavalry, who are very fast indeed, and more than capable of taking on enemy light troops. Upgrade their kit and get them some experience and they're very handy. Not good for charges, but when they lurk behind enemy lines it does tend to shake the enemy up to see cavalry behind them.

Roman equites and Greek hippeis are rubbish. Not heavy enough to really be heavy, and again tire too fast.

So what's out there and what's good. And more importantly in responding, why are they good? Just giving the name of a unit isn't any use to anyone.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I like the Thraikioi Prodromoi. They have a pretty good charge, some armor, and they are fast. Decent in a melee battle with a lighter opponent, and fast enough to catch horse archers. Their armor makes it so that they don't get shot to pieces when they do chase HA's. Though they are a very good medium cavalry, you still have to be careful with them, as they will not last toe to toe with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi. These guys in combination with Skuda Baexdzhyntae (Scythian Riders) will make for an effective light/medium cavalry wing (the Scythians are a HorseArcher/Light Lancer hybrid), perfect for those pesky Phalanxes, and all that eastern medium and skirmisher cavalry that you encounter.

[Fondor_Yards]

Scythian Nobles are a nice heavy cavalry unit for factions that don't really have one of their own. They aren't lancers, but are better in a longer meele then most other heavy cavalry *minus cataphracts.* Basicly they are Brihentin but with better stats.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hippakontistai are good value for money. Got that nice kopis sword + don't tire quickly.

Thessalian heavy cavalry, Brihentin -- how can anyone not like them? Alround excellent cavalry in my opinion; of course when you get to Anatolia you will see a lot of people with excellent and even better cavalry are up against your Thessalians & Brihentin. I am talking about Hetairoi, and Kinsmen cavalry. Of course as most heavy cavalry goes it's wise to use them on the enemy heavy cavalry & foot skirmishers first; by that time there should be a fair few enemy units which need very little convincing to break...

However do not think that Brihentin are best value for money as far as Gaullish cavalry can go: that prize should go to Leuce Epos. That's quality skirmisher cavalry/hippeis style, which is incredibly useful if you need to mop up large numbers of routing foes.

Personally I have never been very impressed with Hippeis Asiatikoi but then again I had access to Mada Asabara at those times (for those who don't know Mada Asabara are a bit better for the same cost, however less wide AOR).

I have also found Hippeis to be quite decent, but you really do need to keep them in reserve.

Thechnically speaking you can't call them cavalry but chariots are also pretty awesome. Cindainh can give any cavalry unit up to Brihentin quality (and I should know as it's how I killed quite a few Aedui Vergobrets) a beating... the enemy will not live to tell... Just need to have the chariots do the total chaos, and something with a pointy stick and perferably rubbish in melee (because you will indeed need very little) do the killing. So I find the combination Cindainh + Sotaroas will be quite effective in dispatching enemy medium/light cavalry quickly.

Scythed chariots on the other hand are absolute murder against hoplite style infantry... (Haven't yet tried those against cavalry, but should work also...)

Apart from those, the Prodromoi style cavalry never fails to deliver in my experience; often outfighting seemingly superior opponents. Similarly the Lonchphoroi never cease to amaze.
Of course there are also the various flavours of Horse achers close by...

[jhhowell]

The Thessalians and Eq. Extraordinarii are actually at the low end of heavy cav - the good stuff is all in the east. Kinsmen are IMHO the best heavy cav in the game, all-around. They're not as good as true cataphracts, but they have a very wide AOR and I think most factions can get them in level 4 regional MICs (1.0 AS could, anyway). I find them more cost-effective than my factional cataphracts, too. A historical Rome won't see much of them, though, I think Rome only ever took a couple of the relevant provinces.

AP lances are a requirement to be worth using, IMHO, so Prodromoi are as light as I'll ever use. Rome may as well use the Illyrians, I guess, but they're so poorly armored that factions with real cavalry options shouldn't bother.

Horse archers are incredibly awesome, of course, but probably not much use to a historical Rome campaign. In 0.8 there was a mercenary available up in the Noricum area (not sure if it was the exact province). And anyone can go to the Crimea and get Scythians of several flavors. A lot of people like the Riders (the HA/light lancer combo MerlinusCDXX mentioned) but I don't like them. They're too light to be any good as lancers, so I just take the basic Scythian Horse Archers and use them for what they're good at - and pay a lower upkeep cost, too. Those (and their Armenian clones) have been the backbone of my 1.0 Hayasdan campaign, almost never taking losses and accumulating 7-8 experience levels. But as I said, not exactly a Roman type of unit as I understand the history...

There are Scythian nobles or some such at higher regional MIC levels, IIRC those are a HA/medium lancer hybrid. Not sure how useful they are; when I use lancers, I want them to be extremely heavily armored (Kinsmen/cataphract type of thing, ideally).

The Armenia region has a HA-heavy mercenary mix, IIRC 4 Sarmatian HA, 2 Scythian Riders, plus the usual infantry options. That may have changed in 1.1, but probably not too much.

The eastern factions all have great factional cav too, but I don't think any of them are available as regionals to other factions.

Back in 0.8, I found the Numidian jav-cav very helpful as Rome. Not sure if it's still true, but the Numidian units were just a bit better than their Greek equivalents (javelin skirmishers or cavalry), and one assumes got a bit of a bonus on desert maps. They suck compared to HA (just as Eq. Extraordinarii suck compared to Kinsmen), but for western units they're as good as you're going to get, I think.

[Ibrahim]

the Hetairoi rule I say-then again, I play with them the most after the E.Extraordinarii.

[QuintusSertorius]

Again, don't you find heavies are useless after a couple of charges? As in too tired to make any more effective ones?

[Fondor_Yards]

Not at all. I find it easier to have them actually charge with lowered lances when they are tired. Sure they won't kill as much in their charge, but I don't use my heavy cavalry to kill with their charge, I use them to break enemy units.

[Ludens]

Again, don't you find heavies are useless after a couple of charges? As in too tired to make any more effective ones?

It's an issue with "lesser" heavy cavalry units. However, for me the point of the charge is the morale impact, not casualties (off course the former is assisted by the latter). I also as a rule don't charge units that are not wavering or uncertain. I think this historical.

BTW, what makes hippoakontistoi so great? They are good rout-chasers, to be sure, but I find their kill-rates somewhat low. They are lousy chargers, and their armour is too little to last in close-combat.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I'll talk about one light horse unit that in all honesty and reality sucks for any practical use, but also one that I deep inside wanted to be kick-ass:



I envision for myself the nomadic, lightly armoured horse-archer killers, not only armed with javelins but also a vicious axe and a small buckler allowing them to be surprisingly tough and resilient, and to be something of an "Ekdromoi", but on horse-back. Ekdromoi hoplites were meant to be the bane of peltasts, and this light cavalry unit is meant to be the bane of horse-archers, thanks to a combination of light armament, swift horses and skill with close-quarter weaponry. These Dahae would embodify the fearsome steppen warrior. Disorganized, rude, crude and robbers at heart. Yet brave almost to the border of bravado, and absolutely terrifying. These guys raid villages for breakfast, they butcher entire caravan trains and not even nomadic royal clans nor chieftains bare to stand their presence. Absolutely lovely in all positive sense.

Yet, in-game they suck arse

[Obelics]

I'll talk about one light horse unit that in all honesty and reality sucks for any practical use, but also one that I deep inside wanted to be kick-ass:



I envision for myself the nomadic, lightly armoured horse-archer killers, not only armed with javelins but also a vicious axe and a small buckler allowing them to be surprisingly tough and resilient, and to be something of an "Ekdromoi", but on horse-back. Ekdromoi hoplites were meant to be the bane of peltasts, and this light cavalry unit is meant to be the bane of horse-archers, thanks to a combination of light armament, swift horses and skill with close-quarter weaponry. These Dahae would embodify the fearsome steppen warrior. Disorganized, rude, crude and robbers at heart. Yet brave almost to the border of bravado, and absolutely terrifying. These guys raid villages for breakfast, they butcher entire caravan trains and not even nomadic royal clans nor chieftains bare to stand their presence. Absolutely lovely in all positive sense.

Yet, in-game they suck arse

man, i know what you feel, im so fond of this guys that every time i think of them, i start to suffer...
so not being an official team member, i can over-expose myself, and i dare to say: "Cmon Team, lets give to these guys at last the defensive stats (armour+defence) of the Curepos and the Leuce Epos, with the Armour Piercing Axe, and at last 18 ammo of javelins... what i dream is a dahae robbers, who are the most "cheep and reliable" cavalry in the East, as the Curepos/leuce Epos are about the most cheep and reliable cavalry in the West... also to prevent other faction to spawn them, id like they have low-Upkeep just for the Pahlava or some other Easterns, while for other faction they have hight upkeeps.
Lets try to look at the stats: 0 ARMOUR and 1 (I say 1) SHIELD..., also, defensive ability is just 7, while the leuce Epos has 11 of defencive ability, 5 armour and 2 shield.
So if i think the Leuce Epos has the Helmet, then i would give the dahae at last 3 of armour, or even 4, but i would pump their defensive ability to at last the same or more than the Leuce Epos, 12 or 13, and given the dimension of the shield (i know it's just a leather or cow-skin shield, but i would consider their ability to fight and their wilderness as an improving factor) id give 3 for it...
Now lets look at the morale, they have an awesome morale of 8 (i sayd 8) while the LeuceEpos has 11... (were these guys some cowards? i say at last the same morale)
Also i would improve their numbers... why not 120 instead of just 100, they would be a more fearsome appearence at the horizon...

anyway in my own version of the game ive modified at last the javelin ammo for them, but that's is just a "personal" modification... and ive not that knowledge of the steppes, to arguing and defend my requested improvement in an historical debate

[jhhowell]

My point about the various Riders is simple: when would you want to use them in place of a specialized combined arms cavalry wing? Basic HA do just as well at shooting but cost significantly less, and heavy cav (and cataphract HA, ideally) do enormously better than Riders at charging - and will take few losses while the Riders will be seriously understrength after the battle, even charging at the rear of tired enemies.

Granted, if one can only have one unit type in an army, and cata-HA aren't available and/or affordable, Riders are the way to go. But that's never going to be the case.

Specific context in case it helps clarify: my standard Hayasdan army has a general, a cata-HA, three basic HA, and a Kinsmen as the cavalry wing. Do any of the Rider enthusiasts here think I'd benefit by swapping any of those units for a Rider unit?

Back on topic, I wasn't too impressed by the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi in my brief AS game. They're OK, but not nearly heavy (or dense) enough for charges, and the cheap jav-cav are just as good for missile attacks. A bit of a trend there - personally, I don't like jack of all trades, master of none units. I like jack of all trades, master of all (cata-HA!). Or cheap units that just do one thing. Same deal with the velites Konny likes so much - from the 1.0 unit cards I judged them the absolute worst javelin skirmishers in the game - give me peltasts, or give me huge cheap units, not the compromise in the middle!

[STuNTz2023]

In my baktrian campaign, i was at war on all fronts from early on and 3 unit of riders were all i could afford to stop invading armies. They're cheaper than an HA cata and after laying waste have the ability to effectively charge. May not have the impact of cata's but when u can only afford 3 units, id rather them be a hybrid HA like the rider's.

[Timoleon]

I have a question about cavalry weapons and since in this thread we're talking about cavalry I won't start another thread.
After I have charged the enemy cavalry with my Hippeis Thessalikoi, is it better to have them use their secondary weapon during the melee? Their primary weapon is spear (Attack:4, Lethality:0.4) and the secondary is sword (Attack:9, Lethality:0.1), both Armour Piercing. Would the choice be different if I charged infantry?

[Fish-got-a-Sniper]

Well to me, it makes more sense to have them charge fight with spears against cavalry since they get a bonus and swords against infantry because the spear gets a deduction in it's damage.

[QuintusSertorius]

Always better to use spear/lance for the initial charge (bigger charge bonus), then switch to secondary afterwards. Charge with Alt+double click and they do that automatically.

[Swordmaster]

Family Members.

I have to add in here that Lonchophoroi may well be the best medium cavalry at my current disposal (as the Seleukids). They have an amazing number of casualties inflicted in each battle, sometimes up to 500 while only losing ten or less men.

[tls5669]

Carthaginian Sacred Band Calvary. Heavily armored, good morale, good stam, and the only heavy horse that I know of (ive only played about 5 factions) that's fast moving, their charge is good too. Mix in some Numidian light calv, or some decent Med calv and.....OH MY!

[Atraphoenix]

everybody loves light cavalry interesting

so am I only one who is mad about elite and expensive cataphracts?

[Fondor_Yards]

No, but those are easy to use. Just point at the end and let them destroy everything.

[Ibrahim]

everybody loves light cavalry interesting

so am I only one who is mad about elite and expensive cataphracts?

Kataphraktoi tire too esily. they're good, even great, but they tire easily. Heavy cavalry is not as good, but they are less easily tired out, hence more effective charges. Its like using a normal hammer vs. a sledgehammer: you can hit mre often with a normal hammer than a sledgehammer, and you are less tired. It also requires that you get it right the forst time you charge.

[QuintusSertorius]

everybody loves light cavalry interesting

so am I only one who is mad about elite and expensive cataphracts?

Personally I think they're a waste of money. I'd rather have two units of light-mediums, where I get four to six times as many full-pelt charges. Or just use Thrakian Prodromoi.

[The Stranger]

sacred band cavalry! and then the parthian and sauromataen bodyguards or nobly cavalry. horse archers just own the field.

[strategos roma]

Thessalian heavy horse I find is very good. Before you can get better stuff, they're simply superb. I used them a lot in my roman campaign