Obama the White Man

[m52nickerson]

/this is exactly what Im talking about. Obama has taken millions from lobbyists and PACs look it up yourself.

ORELY - http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/su...p?id=N00009638

Do you understand why gas is going up? its simple supply and demand China and Indias need for oil has grown exponentially over the past couple of years. The more people that want your product the higher the price tag.

That is part of it, but you don't think that an unjust war in Iraq has some affect? What about the weak US dollar? What about the fact that the current administration has not done anything to reduce our need for foreign oil? Anyone who looked at world economics knew that the demand for oil was going to rise sharply.

Your soultion to health care is to throw money at it? how do you know that system would be better its not.

Obama's plan is more than simply throwing money at it. From the horses mouth - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Completly pulling out of Iraq now may disastouras consequences.

You mean like saving US lives, and money, and forcing the Iraq government to do something.

Obama sees the fedral goverment as the soultion to everything so did FDR and his effects on the econmy are still being felt for the worse today.

You mean Franklin Delano Roosevelt who pulled us out of the Great Depression, was so popular he was voted in for three terms, and got us through the biggest war in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

Perhaps instead of shooting from the hip, you should do some research first.

[Strike For The South]

ORELY - http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/su...p?id=N00009638



That is part of it, but you don't think that an unjust war in Iraq has some affect? What about the weak US dollar? What about the fact that the current administration has not done anything to reduce our need for foreign oil? Anyone who looked at world economics knew that the demand for oil was going to rise sharply.



Obama's plan is more than simply throwing money at it. From the horses mouth - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/



You mean like saving US lives, and money, and forcing the Iraq government to do something.



You mean Franklin Delano Roosevelt who pulled us out of the Great Depression, was so popular he was voted in for three terms, and got us through the biggest war in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

Perhaps instead of shooting from the hip, you should do some research first.

I will cede the his campagin contributions however do you realize how hard it is to get viable energy and mass produce like we have done with crude oil? The sheer cost of begining such a project makes me shudder. We need to get off it we just cant start throwing cash at it. A national health care system will do more harm than good and cost the average joe more money. Leaving Iraq will kill many more people the fact of the matter is the Iraqi goverment is in no position to "do something" right now and we need to face that. FDR started defict spending and created and artifical market with his new deal his economic policies are the reason our economy has a crippiling defict. To often people look at the short term and neglect the long term. Health care the economy energy they are all pressing issues however we need long term not short term soultions.

Perhaps instead of shooting from the hip, you should do some research first

I don't think that far ahead.

[m52nickerson]

I will cede the his campagin contributions however do you realize how hard it is to get viable energy and mass produce like we have done with crude oil? The sheer cost of begining such a project makes me shudder. We need to get off it we just cant start throwing cash at it.

A mandate that new home be "greener" then normal to help reduce energy use which is 90% petroleum based, would only adds only 5 to 8% to the homes cost. http://www.eco-smart.org/presentatio...-overviews.pdf

How about forcing new cars purchased in the US to be more fuel efferent. The 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid cost $22,600 and gets 47city/ 48 hwy.

Not a scary start.

A national health care system will do more harm than good and cost the average joe more money.

Did you read Obama's plan? He has five ways in which his plan would lower costs.

Leaving Iraq will kill many more people the fact of the matter is the Iraqi goverment is in no position to "do something" right now and we need to face that.

You do know that Obama would not pull all of the troops out at one time. A slow withdraw would force the Iraq government to move forward. With us setting there with no plans on leaving they have no reason to do anything.

If we stay in Iraq for a long period of time, how long do you think our volunteer army will last? A draft in this country would not be a good thing.

FDR started defict spending and created and artifical market with his new deal his economic policies are the reason our economy has a crippiling defict.

Which got us out of a Depression, and feed people, and gave them jobs. Plus the Republicans who believe in "less government" have always added more to the deficithttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...idential_terms

To often people look at the short term and neglect the long term. Health care the economy energy they are all pressing issues however we need long term not short term soultions.

Getting off oil will not have a long term benefit? Creating a system that will get more people health care will not help in the long term?

I don't think that far ahead.

That is why you seem uninformed and are losing this debate.

Exactly. Races are only different if you let people define what a race is. If you remove skin colour what is the difference?

Excluding differences in IQ, not much.

I'm struggling to find how that isn't racist.

Facts are suddenly racist?

Im sorry. We're all exactly the same. Stupid science...

Well since I submitted your original quote to Racists Say the Darndest Things! - http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/Default.aspx?archive=2 we will see if it gets approved and added to the quotes.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well since I submitted your original quote to Racists Say the Darndest Things! - http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/Default.aspx?archive=2 we will see if it gets approved and added to the quotes.

You've got quite a bit of free time on your hands, don't you? The joke's on you though, unfortunately, as the test results are well documented.

If we would presume this is true, the further question would be how much it matter?

Utility is always a questionable arguement. In any event, importance is in the eye of the beholder.

Well yes PJ you have a fair point here, it does come down to the genetic vs environmental camps. I happen to be in the environmental camp myself, but thats the silly idealist in me I have tried to kill for years. You know, lets take people of different ethnicity from equal socio economic backrounds and see how they compare.

Intresting discussion thus far, until you made this distinction I was decidely unintrested in the back and forths, but you've managed to list the one factor that might support your assertions.

Thats assuming you fall into the environmental camp

My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.

The simple mentioning of some basic IQ measurements sends certain people into fits. Accusations of racism, dismissal of documented science, etc. fly. Its devious, but oh so funny.

You may want to look at the studies that compare children of the same socioeconomic backgrounds though. ;)

Hey, PJ lookee here. More really top-grade science that proves those who believe in God are stupider than atheists. IQ tests prove it, you see.

As an on-topic example with which you will surely agree, we can use the Reverend Wright; who is both Christian and black, and therefore so dumb the thesis must be true for all cases.

Calm down Mr. Ghost. I have no love of religion so you may want to withdraw and strike from a different angle. Good try though.

[Slyspy]

My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.

Eh?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.

The simple mentioning of some basic IQ measurements sends certain people into fits. Accusations of racism, dismissal of documented science, etc. fly. Its devious, but oh so funny.

So you were trolling

[PBI]

My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.

There's a word for that. It's called trolling.

Not really something to boast about, PJ

[m52nickerson]

You've got quite a bit of free time on your hands, don't you? The joke's on you though, unfortunately, as the test results are well documented.

CountArach, Ironside and other did a great job at pointing out that the study you are referring to is a bunch of crap. That and if you knew anything about science you would understand that one study does not evidence make.

...and it took about a minute to submit your response.

Utility is always a questionable arguement. In any event, importance is in the eye of the beholder.

Correct, intelligent people do not find race important, only fools do.

My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.

Again if you knew anything about science you would understand that Intelligent Design is not science. Link-n-Learn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The simple mentioning of some basic IQ measurements sends certain people into fits. Accusations of racism, dismissal of documented science, etc. fly. Its devious, but oh so funny.

That is because uninformed people spewing crap tends to get people upset.

Not only does that give a bad name to the .ORG by having the link to this site up there, but it completely ignores his actual argument.

Smooth.

No it gives PanzerJaeger a bad name. There is also a link back to the thread.
....then again if it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, PanzerJaeger's comment is racist.

Now I have to go for a minute and see your quote on RSTDT.

Oh and PanzerJaeger your post about Obama's lies found here https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=117
Snopes disagrees with you!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No it gives PanzerJaeger a bad name. There is also a link back to the thread.

It's really still quite immature in my humble opinion, but I'll leave it be.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ah Mr. Nickerson, you remind me so much of myself about four years ago. You've convinced yourself that you know how the world should be, and those that disagree with you are not simply wrong, but evil. Therefore, in your mind you are completely justified in being such a.. what’s a polite term for ?

Its ok though. If you stick around long enough, you may well develop a certain respect, even camaraderie, with even those whose worldviews are completely opposite of your own.

As to your zingers...

CountArach, Ironside and other did a great job at pointing out that the study you are referring to is a bunch of crap. That and if you knew anything about science you would understand that one study does not evidence make.

You may have missed it, but as others have pointed out, my posting in this thread was more of a game I've been playing with myself for my own personal amusement, or in other words, trolling. Its a nasty habit and I do apologize, but hopefully it has opened some people's eyes.

What I posted was not the result of one study, but an amalgamation of countless studies conducted over multiple decades. Black people consistently score lower on average than white people, even when care is taken to avoid bias and match socioeconomic conditions. In fact, the difference grows as the subject's respective socioeconomic situation increases.

The real question, as I said before, is: why does this occur? Is it genetic? Is it environmental? And more importantly, does it matter? Instead of addressing these questions, you've lashed out at myself, and the information itself.

When you begin to dismiss valid scientific research in order to preserve your own ideology, you may want to have a long look in the mirror. How different are you from those Intelligent Designers?

Correct, intelligent people do not find race important, only fools do.

Intelligent people learn to read between the lines.

Again if you knew anything about science you would understand that Intelligent Design is not science. Link-n-Learn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

In your zealous fervor, you've failed to take a hint - or even read what I've written.

I have no love of religion

You see, you have created this archetype of a bible-thumping, right wing, bigot from Kansas in your head without any real knowledge of where I stand. Try agnostic fascist with a distinct admiration for the Jewish people and Israel. Does that blow your mind?

The irony of using Wiki as a source is not lost on me.

That is because uninformed people spewing crap tends to get people upset.

Ah, but what I posted were documented IQ test results reflecting years of research. Who is uninformed here?

....then again if it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, PanzerJaeger's comment is racist.

My comment was simply data.. information without any opinion attached. The value of that information is debatable, but the purpose of posting it was to illicit a certain response. Thus far, you've demonstrated exactly what I intended to show; hook, line, and sinker.

Oh and PanzerJaeger your post about Obama's lies found here https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=117
Snopes disagrees with you!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp

The anger is almost tangible. I love it.

Put down your sword and read my post again. Did I write that? Thanks for the information, though.

[Fragony]

Kinda funny how those who get so worked up over things like this insist on viewing IQ as a degree of worthyness, usually smart people. If you have a lower IQ you aren't any less a person.

[Lemur]

You may have missed it, but as others have pointed out, my posting in this thread was more of a game I've been playing with myself for my own personal amusement, or in other words, trolling. Its a nasty habit and I do apologize, but hopefully it has opened some people's eyes.

Yes, PJ, you've learned how to indicate racism in a number of ways without actually verging into explicit statement. It's quite the little dance you do.

In your zealous fervor, you've failed to take a hint - or even read what I've written.

You're also becoming quite proficient at indicating disdain and arrogance. Between this and the obliquely-indicated racism, you're going to be quite a hit in polite society.

Try agnostic fascist with a distinct admiration for the Jewish people and Israel. Does that blow your mind?

Why should it? Most extreme rightwing people in the U.S. are pro-Israel these days. It's not an original or unique position, and barely deserves comment. The fact that you manage to be a practicing fascist without being an anti-Semite is not terribly interesting, no matter how much you congratulate yourself.

My comment was simply data.. information without any opinion attached. The value of that information is debatable, but the purpose of posting it was to illicit a certain response. Thus far, you've demonstrated exactly what I intended to show; hook, line, and sinker.

For a guy who adopts such a superior attitude when responding to people who are justifiably angry at your realistic and convincing imitation of a racist, you really ought to know the difference between "elicit" and "illicit." And what kind of classy dude gloats about having trolled someone else into anger? What kind of contribution are you looking to make? "Look, ma, when I imitate a racist jerk, people get angry! Aren't I clever and educational?"

The anger is almost tangible. I love it.

Then what the hell is wrong with you?

Put down your sword and read my post again. Did I write that?

You posted 46 of those 50 lies in another thread. Are you suggesting you didn't, or are you engaging in your new favorite hobby, trolling and lying until people get angry at you? Lovely habit you have there.

[CountArach]

Well since I submitted your original quote to Racists Say the Darndest Things! - http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/Default.aspx?archive=2 we will see if it gets approved and added to the quotes.

It's up there

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It's up there

Not only does that give a bad name to the .ORG by having the link to this site up there, but it completely ignores his actual argument.

Smooth.

[Ironside]

That simply is not accurate. There is a vocal minority that has asserted that the tests are biased, but no basis for these claims has been made. On the other hand, great efforts have been made to assure the tests are not biased, and the results have been the same. Note the socioeconomic comparisons.

The debate is over why black people consistently score worse than whites and asians. I'm sure if you're at all familiar with the discussion, you know of the genetic versus environmental camps.

If we would presume this is true, the further question would be how much it matter? Considering that the in-group variation is much larger than the between group variation, I would say quite little.

[Tribesman]

Sorry, but that is not the general concensus.

Hey panzer,that source you are using for your cut and pastes , it wouldn't happen to have little big warning headings concerning accuracy neutrality and unverified claims covering the whole article would it
Not a very good start if you want to claim facts and consensus is it

Now you could ofcourse follow the links to the scientists statements where they give their views on the subject , but for every one of those that agree there is one that disagrees and a whole pile who sit between the two , not exactly a general consensus like is it

[PanzerJaeger]

This is pretty much SOC101 material man. We don't have to use Wiki, though. I just thought the footnotes offered a good starting point. What would you consider an accurate source?

Now you could ofcourse follow the links to the scientists statements where they give their views on the subject , but for every one of those that agree there is one that disagrees and a whole pile who sit between the two , not exactly a general consensus like is it

That simply is not accurate. There is a vocal minority that has asserted that the tests are biased, but no basis for these claims has been made. On the other hand, great efforts have been made to assure the tests are not biased, and the results have been the same. Note the socioeconomic comparisons.

The debate is over why black people consistently score worse than whites and asians. I'm sure if you're at all familiar with the discussion, you know of the genetic versus environmental camps.

[Odin]

I'm sure if you're at all familiar with the discussion, you know of the genetic versus environmental camps.

Well yes PJ you have a fair point here, it does come down to the genetic vs environmental camps. I happen to be in the environmental camp myself, but thats the silly idealist in me I have tried to kill for years. You know, lets take people of different ethnicity from equal socio economic backrounds and see how they compare.

Intresting discussion thus far, until you made this distinction I was decidely unintrested in the back and forths, but you've managed to list the one factor that might support your assertions.

Thats assuming you fall into the environmental camp

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hey, PJ lookee here. More really top-grade science that proves those who believe in God are stupider than atheists. IQ tests prove it, you see.

As an on-topic example with which you will surely agree, we can use the Reverend Wright; who is both Christian and black, and therefore so dumb the thesis must be true for all cases.

[Xiahou]

Hey, PJ lookee here. More really top-grade science that proves those who believe in God are stupider than atheists. IQ tests prove it, you see.

As an on-topic example with which you will surely agree, we can use the Reverend Wright; who is both Christian and black, and therefore so dumb the thesis must be true for all cases.

Is that a strawman or a red herring? I'm not sure which. Regardless, I think you could probably do better.

If we would presume this is true, the further question would be how much it matter? Considering that the in-group variation is much larger than the between group variation, I would say quite little.

I agree. I think any differences are largely irrelevant as anything more than an academic curiosity. In terms of real world applicability, I don't see any.

[Fragony]

All that matters is that a black man can actually run for president. It's still intact, don't think that would be possible here.

[Geoffrey S]

Edit: Fragony, I agree. I hear a lot of people here (ie., student-infested Leiden) who seem to take the reluctance to vote for Obama among many Americans as some sort of proof of inherent racism of some kind. But really, I don't see the Dutch voting a member of an ethnic minority into Het Torentje anytime soon. And considering how immature the Dutch approach to actually integrating said minorities into this state, this nation, is at the moment that's probably for the best.

But that belongs more in Adrian's topic. Really must type something coherent for that soon.

Is that a strawman or a red herring? I'm not sure which. Regardless, I think you could probably do better.

Looked like a polite way for BG to express the height his opinion of the information Panzer linked to.

[Tribesman]

Calm down Mr. Ghost. I have no love of religion so you may want to withdraw and strike from a different angle.

Hey Panzer its the same angle , disputed findings from IQ tests by scientists

[Banquo's Ghost]

Is that a strawman or a red herring? I'm not sure which. Regardless, I think you could probably do better.

It's whatever you want it to be and less.

I was only trying to point out that there's a lot of silly science out there on the subject of IQ and correlations to assorted groups that people want to belittle.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That is part of it, but you don't think that an unjust war in Iraq has some affect? What about the weak US dollar? What about the fact that the current administration has not done anything to reduce our need for foreign oil? Anyone who looked at world economics knew that the demand for oil was going to rise sharply.

Actually, I would suggest that the war in Iraq was far more "just" than it has been (at least until recently) well managed. Nor do I believe that Iraqi oil, which is now pumping at nearly pre Iraqi Freedom levels, is vital difference. The weak US dollar accounts for a good slice of the recent cost increase per barrel, as does the increased demand for oil worldwide. The single biggest factor, however, is OPEC. Since 1973, world population has increase by more than a third, and oil consumption has gone up even faster (roughly 50%). While most other producers are pumping nearly 50% more oil than 35 years ago, OPEC is pumping less than 5% more. As a semi-monopoly, they get to smile and _____ us, no doubt while kindly offering to use petroleum jelly to ease things.

You mean like saving US lives, and money, and forcing the Iraq government to do something.

I'm not sure that a US pullback, "Iraqization," will truly have them stepping up to the bar the way they'd need to. With us taking lumps for them and providing stability (which we are, at last, with better resources and focus) they may actually develop something approaching stability using a three-state with "federal" umbrella approach -- which is the way it is trending. Without the USA, I think you'd see a splintering (and possibly out-and-out civil war). Of course, critics of everything Bush still presume that such a civil conflict was and is the only possible result and view the last 18 months as only a temporary fig-leafing of the problem.

You mean Franklin Delano Roosevelt who pulled us out of the Great Depression, was so popular he was voted in for three terms, and got us through the biggest war in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt.

Ahh...the sacred myth of the almighty FDR. An effective war leader he was. His decision to employ the navy in the Atlantic in support of England in early 1941 helped turn the tide in the Battle of the Atlantic and his pressure on Japan virtually guaranteed a U.S.-Japanese conflict. He and Churchill must both have done a jig when Hitler was idiotic enough to declare war and let them do their "Germany First" plan as they desired. In many ways it was a good decision. Roosevelt feared a Nazi-dominated Europe on many levels -- and rightly so.

Economically, the New Deal had far less impact than it did psychologically -- which is not unimportant, I admit -- the world economy had actually hit its bottom just prior to FDR taking office and was already beginning the slow climb back. FDR's "miracle" was simple Keynesianism and many of his regulatory efforts were rolled back in the 1970's and 1980's as too restrictive of the economy. World War II ended the Great Depression by removing a lot of the surplus workforce from existence while encouraging a resurgence of trade.

That FDR was popular is undoubtable. That he was a powerful leader who re-shaped the USA is beyond question. A lot of the impact thereof is very much debatable.