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  1. #1

    Unhappy American Socialism

    I invite you to paint your vision of American Socialism, be that dystopic or eutopic.

    Those of you who know me, know my politics. Let me just say that I am rethinking my understanding of policy within the context of individual opportunity and responsibility.
    Last edited by Divinus Arma; 06-05-2008 at 20:45.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  2. #2
    Son of a Camel Member anelious phyros's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Paint? What do you mean by paint?

  3. #3
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    It took me a long time to understand why a bunch of people who are on the surface, rational, reasonable and intelligent (namely, the Europeans) would embrace socialism to such a strong degree. You don't see that many unemployed pot-smoking 20 somethings playing video games 24-7, so what gives.

    And then it dawned on me, we're not talking about the same economic system at all. I'm not certain I completely understand European Socialism yet, but one thing is clear, it's definitely not American socialism. American socialism is all about handouts, college students going to university for 9 years, that sort of thing. *shiver*

    There are some good, nay, vital, programs that come out of socialism. Nobody wants to read about granny eating cat food or a 5 year old being adopted on the black market.

    But in my mind, socialism always down to one fundamental question.... Do you think your government can do a better job of taking care of the people than the people can do for themselves.

    And in America, that answer is a earth-booming resounding NO
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-05-2008 at 20:53.
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  4. #4
    Son of a Camel Member anelious phyros's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Okay oaky, you've made your point.
    And I sir totally agree. Even though from america. But still it's alot better then some places. You've got to look at what you got like freedom. A lot of countries dream of freedom. The Russian Govt. dosn't even let you leave!

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    college students going to university for 9 years, that sort of thing. *shiver*
    Indeed - these things would of course never happen here in Europe/Germany

    ...

    uhm

    ...

    wait


  6. #6
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    American socialism is all about handouts, college students going to university for 9 years, that sort of thing. *shiver*
    It should be about demanding what is rightfully yours, IMO.

    The press asked a retired labour top(either gerhardsen, hågensen or lie, not sure which) a while ago what he thought was the best thing socialism had done in this country. His answer was that people no longer had take their hat off when they talked to the director.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    It took me a long time to understand why a bunch of people who are on the surface, rational, reasonable and intelligent (namely, the Europeans) would embrace socialism to such a strong degree. You don't see that many unemployed pot-smoking 20 somethings playing video games 24-7, so what gives.

    And then it dawned on me, we're not talking about the same economic system at all. I'm not certain I completely understand European Socialism yet, but one thing is clear, it's definitely not American socialism. American socialism is all about handouts, college students going to university for 9 years, that sort of thing. *shiver*

    There are some good, nay, vital, programs that come out of socialism. Nobody wants to read about granny eating cat food or a 5 year old being adopted on the black market.

    But in my mind, socialism always down to one fundamental question.... Do you think your government can do a better job of taking care of the people than the people can do for themselves.

    And in America, that answer is a earth-booming resounding NO
    I think where you go wrong is in thinking of Europe as Socialist. In Britain we currently have a New Labour government and we aren't Socialist, or what you call "Liberal". I can't speak for the other European countries but in Britain the status quo has to do with the aftermath of WWII. The Welfare State was created under the slogan, "A Country Fit for Heroes to Live In" as I recall.

    The basic principle is that everyone has the right to certain things, which should be free at the point of source. Mismanagement has allowed the system to break down but the list is basically: Law & Order, Education, Healthcare, the Fire Service.

    So, basically you have the same right to get a new hip because you pay taxes as you do to have your house put out when it is on fire.

    Additionally, no one who cannot earn enough money to support themselves should suffer for it. This is the tricky bit the political parties argue about, i.e. where to draw the line.
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  8. #8
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Socialized medicine is the hallmark of a civilized society and would well befit a nation as inherently great as the US of A.

    As for the argument that the private sector manages things better than the government, I would ask, then, why the FBI, CIA, military, and justice departments are not handed over to a for-profit corporation in order to provide a better service for the American people?
    Unto each good man a good dog

  9. #9
    Son of a Camel Member anelious phyros's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Smart..... :think:

  10. #10
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    Socialized medicine is the hallmark of a civilized society and would well befit a nation as inherently great as the US of A.

    As for the argument that the private sector manages things better than the government, I would ask, then, why the FBI, CIA, military, and justice departments are not handed over to a for-profit corporation in order to provide a better service for the American people?
    Not all things are best left to the market.

    Come on ,Beirut, using the FBI, CIA, and military?



  11. #11
    Tribunus Plebis Member Gaius Scribonius Curio's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    Socialized medicine is the hallmark of a civilized society and would well befit a nation as inherently great as the US of A.

    As for the argument that the private sector manages things better than the government, I would ask, then, why the FBI, CIA, military, and justice departments are not handed over to a for-profit corporation in order to provide a better service for the American people?
    Because then their key aim would be to make a profit, and thus their idea, to 'protect' the American people, would be completely undermined. Just in case anyone didn't get there.

    Socialism is obviously much more prevalent in Europe than America, not necessarily in Britain, but definitely on the continent. I'd also say that Britain is more socialist than the US, merely because the US is the antithesis of socialist concepts.
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  12. #12
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    American Socialism = European Conservatism.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
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  13. #13
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    Socialized medicine is the hallmark of a civilized society and would well befit a nation as inherently great as the US of A.

    As for the argument that the private sector manages things better than the government, I would ask, then, why the FBI, CIA, military, and justice departments are not handed over to a for-profit corporation in order to provide a better service for the American people?
    Defence contrators...
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  14. #14
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    Socialized medicine is the hallmark of a civilized society and would well befit a nation as inherently great as the US of A.

    As for the argument that the private sector manages things better than the government, I would ask, then, why the FBI, CIA, military, and justice departments are not handed over to a for-profit corporation in order to provide a better service for the American people?
    The Canadian Supreme Court found that citizens died while on waiting lists for treatments. How is that civilized?

    CR
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  15. #15
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    The Canadian Supreme Court found that citizens died while on waiting lists for treatments. How is that civilized?

    CR
    And that doesnt happen in your system?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  16. #16
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    The Canadian Supreme Court found that citizens died while on waiting lists for treatments. How is that civilized?

    CR
    And Americans have died for lack of money to buy insurance and have died because their insurance, even when paid for, cut them off when they needed it most.

    At least with socialized medicine the basic tenet of caring for all people equally is intact. What a marvelous statement of principle for a country to live by. For a country not to live by this principle is quite simply ghastly and socially backwards.
    Unto each good man a good dog

  17. #17

    Unhappy Re: American Socialism

    I challenge you, and especially those who would react with skepticism, offer me your vision.

    A mere NO does not serve your argument. Don Corleone, that is beneath you Sir. Please indulge me.

    Others, please at least try and keep to the point and offer a higher perspective of the theoretical consequences of certain, or the entirety of, socialized industries.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
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  18. #18
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    In answering the original question, I think it would happen as a result of something along the lines of the Great Depression, probably in combination with a nationalistic and/or xenophobic movement as well. A national-socialist party, if you will. In the name of "freedom" we'll lick unemployment (everyone must Do Their Part) and beat the Japs terrorists. Healthcare and the like will be useful not only as a means to fuel the war machine but also a way to placate any of the masses who hold on to the provincial notions of liberty.

    I cannot imagine us instituting significant and lasting socialized public healthcare over the long term because we simply cannot afford it.
    Last edited by Alexander the Pretty Good; 06-06-2008 at 06:07.

  19. #19
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good View Post
    I cannot imagine us instituting significant and lasting socialized public healthcare over the long term because we simply cannot afford it.
    Not with current taxes at least. Now, reverse Bush's tax cuts...
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  20. #20
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    If I wanted to be really cheeky I could suggest this as an example of American Socialism:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
    Although in truth I'd say the founding fathers were more Liberals than they were Socialists.

    I would definitely argue though that some organisations should exist first and foremost to provide a service, not to make a profit. The disastrous privatisation of the UK postal service is an example of this: The new managers seem to have decided that the most profitable way to run a postal service is not to deliver any post or have any post offices, and thus seem intent on closing down the company entirely.

    Having a few key services run centrally to maximise their public service benefits the economy as a whole, even if they do not make a profit themselves. All countries have this to some degree, even the US, so I suppose you could call this American Socialism. It's simply a question of balance between a Socialist and Capitalist system; either extreme is unworkable.

  21. #21
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    It seems to me that it depends entirely on what you deam an essential service. Apparently healthcare is not deemed so in the US. The Post Office is a parralel example in the UK. The EU's concept of "Competion = Better Service" has failed miserably when confronted with a service designed to be a monopoly and work as such.
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  22. #22
    Son of a Camel Member anelious phyros's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Well anything extreme will fail some how!
    Like terroist are called extremsist sometimes. You don't here the whole world clapping for them do you?

  23. #23
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry View Post
    If I wanted to be really cheeky I could suggest this as an example of American Socialism:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

    Although in truth I'd say the founding fathers were more Liberals than they were Socialists.
    What is socialist about 'all men being created equal?'
    Last edited by Proletariat; 06-06-2008 at 14:06.

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