Persians and Armenians

**Ibrahim** · 06-19-2008, 03:06

isn't he the one Nero embarassed by playing a lyre right after he was crowned (according to rumors)?
so I have heard-I dunno

**Cyclops** · 06-19-2008, 03:49

What a fascinating thread.

My impression of the Armenians is of a mountain culture emerging in the late bronze age, strongly influenced by the dazzling cultures and polities of Mesopotamia as they rose in turn (Assyria, Babylon, Media and Persia), and responding to western influences (Lydians/Phrygians, Hellenes and Romans) but retaining a discrete identity between these (more or less) powerful cultural tides.

I feel they were not just a backwater of the Persian empire, or a cultural dependancy of Mesopotamia. Is this fair to say, or were there times when Armenia really was quite immeresed in "Greater Persia"?

**artavazd** · 06-19-2008, 05:10

Originally Posted by Cyclops

What a fascinating thread.

My impression of the Armenians is of a mountain culture emerging in the late bronze age, strongly influenced by the dazzling cultures and polities of Mesopotamia as they rose in turn (Assyria, Babylon, Media and Persia), and responding to western influences (Lydians/Phrygians, Hellenes and Romans) but retaining a discrete identity between these (more or less) powerful cultural tides.

I feel they were not just a backwater of the Persian empire, or a cultural dependancy of Mesopotamia. Is this fair to say, or were there times when Armenia really was quite immeresed in "Greater Persia"?

You are completely right. Infact , many administrative characteristics of Urartu(confederation of Armenian tribes which was formed inresponse to Assyrian threats) later show up in Achamenid Perisa

From the title of this thread, I dont want people getting the impression that Persia and Armenia are the same, or Armenians and Persians are the same. To put it simply both groups lived close to eachother, had similar culture,similar social structure, both spoke an indo-european language, and in some cases shared common blood in their monarchies. (same as any monarchy in Europe)

In ancient historical sorces Armenians have always been adressed as a distinct ethnic group. The only time a historian grouped another group of people togather with Armenians was Heredotus when he grouped Armenians (most notably the Armen tribe) and Phrygians togather.

In very simple terms I would describe Armenians and Persians as cousins. The exact same thing could be said about Greeks and Armenians as well. I would have to say though in antiqueity the culture and social structre of Armenia was ofcourse closer to the Persians than the Greeks. but in regards to closeness of language Greek is closer to Armenian (that is not to say it doesnt have any similarities with Persian, because it has a lot )

I found two neat music video on youtube, It shows traditional Armenian folk music, dress, and I think it gives a nice overall picture of Armenia, and Armenians enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzgZseZp4W0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV96...eature=related

**kambiz** · 06-19-2008, 10:09

In very simple terms I would describe Armenians and Persians as cousins. The exact same thing could be said about Greeks and Armenians as well.

Wow that's cool. But if we are cousins ,And you and hellens are cousins as well ,Then logically we iranians (At least ancient iranians) were cousins to hellens as well ?! Then we can say graco-iranian wars were somehow a war between the same people who one was ruler of the east and another the ruler of the west ,right?

BTW ,as you guys mentioned before armenians and iranians were so close to eachothers. Even now there are many armenians live in iran and even one of them was in our national football team

(Armenak Petrosian ,Do you know him artavazd?). Myslef had a armenian friend back in university a really good fellow

there are many more in tehran , isfahan ,shiraz and many more cities.

And thanks for the youtube link artavazd

**Jolt** · 06-19-2008, 18:36

Originally Posted by kambiz

Wow that's cool. But if we are cousins ,And you and hellens are cousins as well ,Then logically we iranians (At least ancient iranians) were cousins to hellens as well ?! Then we can say graco-iranian wars were somehow a war between the same people who one was ruler of the east and another the ruler of the west, right?

I wouldn't say Persians are cousins of the Greeks in any sense of the word (Although, they can be traced back to the Pre-Indo European group.) Persians/Armenians were/are part of the Iranian ethnic group which spreaded into the Middle-East in the 3th millenium BC, while the Greeks are part of the Indo-European ethnic group (Along with most Native European people).

Armenia was originally part of the "Dene-Caucasian" culture group (This is not unanimous in the scientific community), which originally went from Turkey to Persia, going along the mouths of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers (The rest of the Middle East was occupied by ethnic Semitic population (From which the most relevant Semitic peoples were the Arabs, Babylonians, Akkadians and Phoenicians).

The Caucasian ethnic group was successively obliterated and replaced by different migrating ethinicities. Around the third/final quarter time of the 3th millenium, both the Indo-European ethnic group (The Hittites) migrated into the Anatolian Peninsula from Europe, effectively populating most of it's Western part), while at the same time Iranians made their way into Persia from present-day Turkmenistan. (Though Iranians they not thoroughly colonized Persia around this time. The Hittite Kingdom did progress deeper into the Anatolian Peninsula by the half of the 2nd millenium. It is in that date that another wave of Iranian people spreads in all directions, even attacking Mesopotamia and colonizing more lands in Persia (Also in India, from where the Aryan people comes from).

In the final quarter of the 2nd millenia, another Indo-European migration took place in Turkey (Phrygians), effectively wresting the control of Northern Anatolia away from the Hittites and colonizing the said region. The Hittites also expanded further inland in Southern Anatolia (These are generally called (Neo-Hittites). Around the first half of the first millenium, the Caucasian Medes were replaced with Iranian people (These would later form the "Proto-Persian Empire". While, a great many Scythians descended the Caucasus from the North, effectively replacing the Eastern Caucasus with Indo-European people. What remained of the Caucasian culture was the Kingdom of Van (Which would be destroyed), situated in modern-day Armenia, and Western Caucasus, north of Van. Besides the Kingdom of Elam (These would later also suffer a great Iranian migrations into it's lands).

From there on, the formation of the Median Empire and it's capture of Van/Armenian lands signified it's turning into an Iranian Culture. What remained Caucasian was basically just present-day Georgia. Despite the Georgian region had come later on under partial occupation by various Kingdoms (The most frequent one was Pontus), they were never replaced in that region by a different Ethinicity.

If anyone knows anything else about the origins of Iranians/Caucasians, go ahead and correct/clarify my comment.

**artavazd** · 06-19-2008, 18:50

Originally Posted by Jolt

I wouldn't say Persians are cousins of the Greeks in any sense of the word (Although, they can be traced back to the Pre-Indo European group.) Persians/Armenians were/are part of the Iranian ethnic group which spreaded into the Middle-East in the 3th millenium BC, while the Greeks are part of the Indo-European ethnic group (Along with most Native European people).

Armenia was originally part of the "Dene-Caucasian" culture group (This is not unanimous in the scientific community), which originally went from Turkey to Persia, going along the mouths of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers (The rest of the Middle East was occupied by ethnic Semitic population (From which the most relevant Semitic peoples were the Arabs, Babylonians, Akkadians and Phoenicians).

The Caucasian ethnic group was successively obliterated and replaced by different migrating ethinicities. Around the third/final quarter time of the 3th millenium, both the Indo-European ethnic group (The Hittites) migrated into the Anatolian Peninsula from Europe, effectively populating most of it's Western part), while at the same time Iranians made their way into Persia from present-day Turkmenistan. (Though Iranians they not thoroughly colonized Persia around this time. The Hittite Kingdom did progress deeper into the Anatolian Peninsula by the half of the 2nd millenium. It is in that date that another wave of Iranian people spreads in all directions, even attacking Mesopotamia and colonizing more lands in Persia (Also in India, from where the Aryan people comes from).

In the final quarter of the 2nd millenia, another Indo-European migration took place in Turkey (Phrygians), effectively wresting the control of Northern Anatolia away from the Hittites and colonizing the said region. The Hittites also expanded further inland in Southern Anatolia (These are generally called (Neo-Hittites). Around the first half of the first millenium, the Caucasian Medes were replaced with Iranian people (These would later form the "Proto-Persian Empire". While, a great many Scythians descended the Caucasus from the North, effectively replacing the Eastern Caucasus with Indo-European people. What remained of the Caucasian culture was the Kingdom of Van (Which would be destroyed), situated in modern-day Armenia, and Western Caucasus, north of Van. Besides the Kingdom of Elam (These would later also suffer a great Iranian migrations into it's lands).

From there on, the formation of the Median Empire and it's capture of Van/Armenian lands signified it's turning into an Iranian Culture. What remained Caucasian was basically just present-day Georgia. Despite the Georgian region had come later on under partial occupation by various Kingdoms (The most frequent one was Pontus), they were never replaced in that region by a different Ethinicity.

If anyone knows anything else about the origins of Iranians/Caucasians, go ahead and correct/clarify my comment.

Jolt you are mostly Correct, But I would LIke to emphasize that lumping Armenian with Persian togather is not correct. Armenians and Iranians are not part of the same ethnic group that is wrong. The Armenian people are the coming togather of native Caucasian tribes (the tribes of Urartu) and The indo-european speaking Armen tribes who were related to the Phrygians. Ethnicaly Armenians are mostly related to other people of the Caucasus (Georgians, Chechens, Ossetians) Armenians were not replaced by a diffrent ethnicity. What went on in Armenia during the Median invasion, was a transformation of power from the Caucasian/HUrrian speaking ruling class to the Indo-european speaking ruling class (the Armen tribes) THus the coming togather of these tribes formed the Armenian nation.

Recent DNA studies have shown, that Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians, Chechens and other people of the Caucasus are the closest togather (with the exception of Azerbaijan which has significant Central Asian DNA a result of turkification of the area)

**Jolt** · 06-19-2008, 23:56

Originally Posted by artavazd

Jolt you are mostly Correct, But I would LIke to emphasize that lumping Armenian with Persian togather is not correct. Armenians and Iranians are not part of the same ethnic group that is wrong. The Armenian people are the coming togather of native Caucasian tribes (the tribes of Urartu) and The indo-european speaking Armen tribes who were related to the Phrygians. Ethnicaly Armenians are mostly related to other people of the Caucasus (Georgians, Chechens, Ossetians) Armenians were not replaced by a diffrent ethnicity. What went on in Armenia during the Median invasion, was a transformation of power from the Caucasian/HUrrian speaking ruling class to the Indo-european speaking ruling class (the Armen tribes) THus the coming togather of these tribes formed the Armenian nation.

Recent DNA studies have shown, that Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians, Chechens and other people of the Caucasus are the closest togather (with the exception of Azerbaijan which has significant Central Asian DNA a result of turkification of the area)

Right, right. Thus why I said Culture, since I didn't mean the replacement of Armenia ethnical group, rather the cultural group. But I suppose that may have been misundertood, as I was mostly speaking about ethnicities in the comment.

**artavazd** · 06-19-2008, 18:41

Originally Posted by kambiz

Wow that's cool. But if we are cousins ,And you and hellens are cousins as well ,Then logically we iranians (At least ancient iranians) were cousins to hellens as well ?! Then we can say graco-iranian wars were somehow a war between the same people who one was ruler of the east and another the ruler of the west ,right?
BTW ,as you guys mentioned before armenians and iranians were so close to eachothers. Even now there are many armenians live in iran and even one of them was in our national football team

(Armenak Petrosian ,Do you know him artavazd?). Myslef had a armenian friend back in university a really good fellow

there are many more in tehran , isfahan ,shiraz and many more cities.

And thanks for the youtube link artavazd

Well the Greeks would be like cousins to Armenians from the Fathers side and Persians would be cousins to Armenians from the mothers side.

Yes there are many Armenians in Iran, but the history behind that is not a very nice one. In the I think 16th or 17th century (centuries after Iran had become muslim) The Persian Shah deported hundreds of thousands of Armenians from Armenia into Persia. While at the same time settling Kurds into Armenia. This was done to make Armenia less stable. Many of those Armenians In Iran today are the offsprings of those who were forcefully deported centuries ago.

**Foot** · 06-19-2008, 18:49

Originally Posted by artavazd

Well the Greeks would be like cousins to Armenians from the Fathers side and Persians would be cousins to Armenians from the mothers side.

Whilst calling them cousins may sound reasonable, it is certainly not the correct terminology for any serious understanding of the theory of linguistic development of the indo-european and the archaelogical evidence for it. Indeed, any familial terms are very much out of place here.

Foot

**artavazd** · 06-19-2008, 18:52

Originally Posted by Foot

Whilst calling them cousins may sound reasonable, it is certainly not the correct terminology for any serious understanding of the theory of linguistic development of the indo-european and the archaelogical evidence for it. Indeed, any familial terms are very much out of place here.

Foot

Yes I know Matt. It was a very very simple example. Also I forgot to Mention, that Armenian culture as a whole is part of the Causasian culture (Caucasus)

**Sarkiss** · 06-19-2008, 10:13

awesome videos, thanks for sharing.
in the first video from about 3:20 onward, after the song finishes, you can see the goat skins they are wearing, kind of cardigan. wouldnt that be a perfect way for Armenian low end infantry men to protect themselves? sort of cheap armor that peasantry could afford? make perfect sense to me.
would be nice to see them wearing similar stuff in EBII.