Should Holocaust deniars be jailed?

[KarlXII]

(Note: I do not, in anyway, condone Holocaust deniars, neo-nazis, ro radical right wingers. I know the Holocaust occured, I do not deny it. This is a mere question I have proposed)

So, reading the laws regarding Holocaust Denial, I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?

[Beirut]

No. It is ridiculous that in the fifteen-billion year history of the universe, one single event is not open to question.

For my part, I believe it happened.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Nope. If people want to be idiots, they have every right to do so.

[Martok]

Nope. If people want to be idiots, they have every right to do so.

What he said.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

It comes down to freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

I for one believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and should be allowed to express their views. Whether they're idiots or not, whether they're are conspiracy theorists or not, or whether they are sane or not. If you don't agree with them then don't listen to them.

(I certainly don't!)

[Lemur]

Why should one particular sort of offensive idiocy be illegal? Just say no to thoughtcrime. Freedom of expression rocks my world, baby.

[Crazed Rabbit]

No.

CR

[Odin]

(Note: I do not, in anyway, condone Holocaust deniars, neo-nazis, ro radical right wingers. I know the Holocaust occured, I do not deny it. This is a mere question I have proposed)

So, reading the laws regarding Holocaust Denial, I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?

I am curious about a few things:

1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.

2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?

3. What was your point to posting?

I find it odd to have such a question posed here in the backroom as it seems to be a forum of free thinkers anyway. The question posed seems to be answered by the very nature of the forum and its participants, yet no follow up adgenda

I dont know your posting style, so I am curious. The holocaust is still a fairly sensative topic I have had a few misunderstandings about it here in my time. You've piqued my intrest, and for the record my answer is no I dont think they should be jailed.

Disclaimer: Just because I am curious as to your intent and reasoning dosent mean your wrong to post your query or need to justify it in anyway. However if you would oblige I would be most thankful.

[Fragony]

misunderstandings

If you mean me I am still really sorry, and if you don't, still

[Odin]

If you mean me I am still really sorry, and if you don't, still

Yes you were one of them, we buried that hatchet frag its all good. Besides its just another example of how you changed my life.

[Fragony]

Yes you were one of them, we buried that hatchet frag its all good. Besides its just another example of how you changed my life.

Good. I shoudln't post when drunk. But I am not going to fall for these flowers either

[KarlXII]

1. You're personal answer to the question you posed.

2. Are you surprised by the lopsided outcome of the responses?

3. What was your point to posting?

1. Well, it is tough for me. On one hand, jailing someone for an opinion, stupid as it may be, kind of blows in the face of "Free speech". On the other hand, this is an existing law put in place by a democratic government, and is (not to sure, if Husar would like to correct) open for amendment, this means that the people who do get jailed for this knowingly and willingly break a law put in place. And then there's wether or not people have this opinion because of poor education, or they use this to incite racial hatred and dissent.

2. Yes. I have posed this question to many before, and a lot of the answers I get contains the words "Insensitive", "Nazi", and "Racists". Therefore, this is the first time I really got the answer "People should not be jailed for opinion, even if it is stupid" especially when it comes to the Holocaust.

3. Simple question.

[English assassin]

The answer is obviously no, but this thread is way too boring if I say what I think, so I am going to say the opposite.

Lets look at the facts. The holocaust happened. I mean, it really, really obviously happened.

Why might someone deny that fact?

1) they are ignorant of the evidence for the holocaust. Well, OK. Personally, before rushing out with a really whacky and very offensive point of view, I would check my facts a touch, but we'll give these guys some slack. They need some info. That's fine, we give them a book and send them home.

2) They are not relating to the holocaust as a historical fact, but as something else. OK, this gets a bit darker. Why would someone need to believe industrialised murder of jews (and others but mainly jews) didn't happen? Why would they need to communicate that belief. What agenda are they promoting, and should they be allowed public space to promote it? Is there a danger that their beleif may come to be seen to be legitimate? Maybe, even, a valid point of view?

I don't know about criminalisation, but there is a difference between being open minded and saying everything goes. If we are criminalsing not a private opinion but public advocacy, well, maybe its OK to impose some rules on public debate.

Ah, hell, I haven't even managed to convince myself. As you were, gentlemen.

Nice to see you around, Odin.

[KrooK]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

[CountArach]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

Why is that?

[KarlXII]

Yep = same like deniars of soviet crimes and jewish crimes.

Please, don't post. I do not wish this thread to be locked.

Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism, and even though I agree that the USSR had crimes, due to past reading, I will view the comment anti Russian as well

[Tribesman]

Yep = same like deniars of Polish crimes

[CountArach]

Haha Tribsey

[KarlXII]

Win, but I see where this will go, unfortunately.

[Dâriûsh]

Edit: Unless you can give me some non biased evidence of "Jewish crimes" then I will take the comment as a kind of anti Semetism

Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky?

[Odin]

Maybe our friend meant Meyer Lansky?

Maybe he did, but why anyone would want to shut up Krook is beyond me. He is by far one of the most entertaining backroom goers we have and should be considered for senior membership for his well thought out contributions.

[Don Corleone]

Odin, cant' believe I haven't said this before, but welcome back from the Long Dark Night we all wander into from time to time. Good to have you back. I credit my rudeness to an enduring disbelief that you were ever really gone.

I'm going the EA route and making an argument for outlawing holocaust denial (though I personally think you turn the lights on cockroaches, not stamp your feet and make them run & hide).

Our grandfathers weren't idiots. They had just witnessed one of the worst wars in mankind's history, and in absolute scale, it was the worst. But I think what scared them the absolute most was how thinking, rational people in Germany, Austria and other places could have been led to such a place (no offense to my German and Austrian friends. There were plenty of Nazis in the US in the 30's).

The violence rattled them, surely, but the ideas that had been pressed through Goebel's information machine and accepted as unassailable facts, this terrified them more than anything they had ever known. It would be as though after getting into Kabul, we learned that the Taliban had convinced the Afghans that the Sun was a death ray put in the sky by the USA, and therefore they only came out at night.

I think the legal minds of the time reacted rather strongly to this phenomenon. They wanted to make certain another Ministry for Public Enlightenment (Goebbel's little after-school club) could never come to pass. The laws against the Holocaust are as much laws against Gleichschaltung as anything else. And when you look at what they were able to accomplish in 15 short years, you understand why our grandfathers had the reaction they did. It happened so quickly, so thoroughly, and so beyond the bounds of human reason, our grandfathers were terrified about propaganda and misuse of information. Laws against denying the holocaust were seen as a 'canary in the coal-mine' if you will. So I understand them. I think their time has come and gone, however.

[JR-]

I have noticed that those who apparently publically deny the Holocaust are fined and even jailed. Now, to the point, should Holocaust deniars be jailed for this?

no they should not.