Least attractive regions in M2TW

[St.Jimmy]

It has to be Fortaleza... it's just never worth the trouble. I've never found anything there that made it worth the effort and garrison required.

Baghdad has potential as a decent city. And as for Mosul and Jedda, I got a tip for you guys, after gunpowder arrives, BUY THEM. Do not conquer, BUY. Trust me, what you'll pay for the cities is an incredible deal for the garrisons you get. Jedda gets you 8 units of Elephants, and Mosul gets you 8 units of Elephant Artie.

If you buy those cities instead of conquering them, you needn't fear the Timurids, you can have toe-to-toe open field slugfests with them. I had fun taking my 8 Elephant units from Jedda over to the Americas to introduce them to the Aztecs. That, and you can recruit both types of Elephants as mercenaries from Mosul, Baghdad, or Jedda. These provinces are tank factories.

Arguin is worth it just so no one else has it. Good merchant fodder, and if it's in rebel or enemy hands you will make less of them than you would if you owned it.

At which point do you buy them? Iv only just tried this out and all i got was some sort of cav?
Its way past gunpowder and the mongols own at the min if that makes any difference?

[ArtistofWarfare]

I haven't played a campaign yet (yeah, yeah- I'm taking my sweet time learning the factions and the battle mechanics) but still, I'll reply based off of my MTW map experience and my limited experience of M2TW thus far. That said, I know this will not be a popular opinion:

Northwestern Europe.

1) I think the quality of mercenaries that this region yields are the lowest quality in the entire game world. Sorry- Kerns and the like are just laughable when you see them approaching your army on the battlefield to pepper your front lines

2) No lucrative trade. Not compared to the rest of the world at least. Whether by land, or by sea, I think these are the least lucrative provinces on the map.

3) Weather. At land and sea, it just sucks. Too much snow, too many storms at sea.

4) It's just totally out of the loop. England and northwestern "France" and the western Scandanavian provinces are just so far removed from the most strategically important locations in the game world. Of course, the exception is the new world - but that's so late in the game and so minor compared to Rome, Constantinople or Jerusalem that it really doesn't change the fact.

In RTW and at times even in MTW I liked the strategic opportunity that this region would provide my military on the battlefield. I liked to use cover and hidden units to surprise/ambush the enemy. I don't know about the campaign map yet, but on the battlefield- this does not seem to be the case with me and M2TW. I like open battlefields more...less obstruction, more room for manuevering. So where this region would typically would appeal to me in the past, it has so far failed to do so with M2TW.

All in all, I can't think of any positive this region has going for it. "Defensible" English lands don't really count in my book because let's face it- What major power ever targets the English islands anyway? It might as well be connected to the mainland.

We'll see if my opinion changes in the coming months - but I doubt that it will. Southern Europe is my ideal starting position it seems- with the Holy Lands perhaps becoming a regular target for me.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

The province of Stockholm is probably the most trade-goods-laden of any province in the whole game. I have had Stockholm up to 9700 florins per turn on low tax rates, surpassing any other city I have ever owned. Northwest Europe is far from the holy lands this is true, but a crusade or a navy fixes that problem quite easily.

Everyone has their own playing style, but financially speaking the NW of the map is the easiest/safest route to riches. If you want open plains and clear skies, play as the Russians, lots of steppe out there.

[Pater Familias]

Helsinki for every faction besides Russia

My beloved and most holy Roman emperor sent a small force against the pagan rebels in Helsinki early on and built a modest but capable defensive fort to discourage invaders, as well as a church. Our cadres of Helsinki-trained priests then went out into Orthodox Novgorodian lands and converted them to the One True Faith, quickly turning the priests into cardinals. Between that and donating a couple of troublesome duchies to the Church, Pope Gregor the Corrupt and his eight Imperial cardinals have ruled the Roman throne for over a decade, and I assure you it will be one of Gregor's pupils who next takes the crown of John the Baptist.
And when the Mongols weaken Novgorod from the East (they were first reported about 15 years ago), my invasion force, built up gradually over the years, will have easy access from out of Finland and will be welcomed as brothers in faith by the 80 percent of Novgorod's citizens who are Catholics, undoubtedly chafing under their heretical Orthodox masters. And my Helsinki-based navy in the Gulf of Finland will make sure the Imperial-Novgorodian War doesn't spill onto my home territories. It shouldn't take more than five years to polish them off, I think.
No, Helsinki's a fine little spot, if you're in for the long haul.

[Pater Familias]

I forgot who I was quoting ... of course ATPG doesn't do "long haul." My bad.

[Askthepizzaguy]

long haul?

I sat around with the map conquered waiting for the Mongols to show up... and massed 20 stacks of troops and put them in Sarkel. Then I waited for the invasion and waited and waited, and they just sat there. I picked them off one by one. In the end I still had some 15 stacks remaining, and I wasn't even conserving my strength or sending reinforcements.

Long Haul is waiting for the Timurids to arrive after you've accomplished all that. BORING!

[The New Che Guevara]

Long Haul is waiting for the Timurids to arrive after you've accomplished all that. BORING!:

Imagine that wait, multiplied by four. They arrived around turn 560... Why did someone tell me you could change the time setitngs... Albeit the only way I've conquered the entire map. I'm tempted to go for turn 1000.

[PBI]

long haul?

I sat around with the map conquered waiting for the Mongols to show up... and massed 20 stacks of troops and put them in Sarkel. Then I waited for the invasion and waited and waited, and they just sat there. I picked them off one by one. In the end I still had some 15 stacks remaining, and I wasn't even conserving my strength or sending reinforcements.

Long Haul is waiting for the Timurids to arrive after you've accomplished all that. BORING!

I suppose you could argue that this is the main reason for turtling; it gives you something to do while you wait for the Timurids to show up.

[ReiseReise]

I asked the same question 6 months ago but got some different answers.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=99557

[Lancome]

Definitely I would say Tripoli... sucks at as a dough maker, no settlements near by except Tunis for Reinforcements when Attacked by the Mogols, It doesnt even make A good staging point when you start take the battle to muslims to the east. Might as well end up taking Cyprus.

[Ratwar]

I'm actually really surprised that nobody's mentioned Bern yet. Landlocked castles bordered by 3 other landlocked castles (all of which are in a better position to control the area's choke points) don't rank very highly in my book.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't know. I'd like to challenge you on that one Ratwar (in a friendly way of course)

Every castle helps, it's in a central European position, and Milan can easily get to it to establish a presence with castle troops, in a time when Ajaccio and the other island province are so weak and useless.

If it were a castle in Timbuktu I could understand, but when it's on the border of Italy, France, and Germany...



Having so many castles in one area allows you to specialize them. One can be infantry, the other cavalry, and the third can be archers. It takes one-third of the time required to upgrade one castle as it does to upgrade three. And you can recruit on average about 9 units per turn just in that general area, all powerful professionals.

Plus they are awful as cities. So why not?

[PBI]

Then again, all the other factions in the area already start with a castle, and Milan doesn't need one. I could see the case for taking Bern as say France in order to deny it to Milan, if it weren't for the fact that all Milan's best troops are city produced.

In fact, I might even suggest Bern is a liability for Milan, since it involves isolating a large garrison north of the Alps and too far away to help its precious Italian cities if they are attacked, as well as leading Milan to waste its money on its overpriced and underpowered castle troops. By this logic it also makes sense for France and the HRE to avoid it as well, since they don't really need it to produce troops and it is inevitable that Milan will waste their time, money and troops attacking its large garrison if you do not. Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake, and all that.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Milan and all the other Italian factions do well with fewer castles, as their militia troops are astounding.

However, a real castle is the best place to recruit mounted knights. I suppose France and HRE would have more use for castle troops, so for Milan it might be overkill, but if you're going to spam mounted knights, the swiss alps are the place to do it. You could spawn an entire stack in just a few turns if you needed to, just in time for a crusade.

Also, take a faction like Venice. The other Italians like to take Venice down by capturing their capital. But Venice has enough other provinces, like Ragusa. This is where Venice spams those heavy cavalry units which are very powerful against militia troops and early Byzantine units. And then they harass you with repeated attempts to recapture Venice, which means either you expend the necessary force to destroy the rest of the Venetian Republic, which is wasteful, expensive, and prolonged, or you deal with constant attacks on one of your good cities.

Different playing styles, to be sure, but I think Bern is the fastest, easiest place to generate a horde of castle troops to compliment their excellent crossbow and spear militia. Toss in some seige equipment and Milan is an impressive fighting force with just those settlements they start with, and one castle. Depriving Milan of this important castle early on limits their forces to militia, which can be devastated by light and heavy cavalry alone. Italian militia is good, but it can't take very many charges to their flanks.

Darn my incessant contrarianism!

[Thermal]

pamplona

[Askthepizzaguy]

Aww don't be dissin' my Pampy'z yo! Pampy is duh shizzle.

[Thermal]

Aww don't be dissin' my Pampy'z yo! Pampy is duh shizzle.

ite, yh corse it'z blingin' init..

[Ratwar]

I don't know. I'd like to challenge you on that one Ratwar (in a friendly way of course)

Every castle helps, it's in a central European position, and Milan can easily get to it to establish a presence with castle troops, in a time when Ajaccio and the other island province are so weak and useless.

If it were a castle in Timbuktu I could understand, but when it's on the border of Italy, France, and Germany...



Having so many castles in one area allows you to specialize them. One can be infantry, the other cavalry, and the third can be archers. It takes one-third of the time required to upgrade one castle as it does to upgrade three. And you can recruit on average about 9 units per turn just in that general area, all powerful professionals.

Plus they are awful as cities. So why not?

I accept!

Centralized geographically in the big picture doesn't really matter (in my opinion). Its local position is on the alternate route between Dijon and Milan. There's a better route. Plus the lack of roads make going East or North wasteful. Now this might be different as a blitzer, I don't know.

As Poor Bloody Infantry already stated, Germany already has a castle in the area and even if France doesn't take Metz, they have far too many castles in the West to really need the troop production of another. Neither of those nations especially needs or wants Bern (and as AI players, they rarely take it). This leaves Milan as the lone country that might find Bern useful. Since Milan is perfectly capable of winning the game without bothering with castles, we can't say that even Milan should value it that highly. Of course, since you said:

Helsinki for every faction besides Russia

I think it is safe to say that you agree that one factions needs do not make a region valuable.

[Askthepizzaguy]

ite, yh corse it'z blingin' init..

Yea verily, 'tis such a thing, for truth!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I accept!

Centralized geographically in the big picture doesn't really matter (in my opinion). Its local position is on the alternate route between Dijon and Milan. There's a better route. Plus the lack of roads make going East or North wasteful. Now this might be different as a blitzer, I don't know.

As Poor Bloody Infantry already stated, Germany already has a castle in the area and even if France doesn't take Metz, they have far too many castles in the West to really need the troop production of another. Neither of those nations especially needs or wants Bern (and as AI players, they rarely take it). This leaves Milan as the lone country that might find Bern useful. Since Milan is perfectly capable of winning the game without bothering with castles, we can't say that even Milan should value it that highly. Of course, since you said:



I think it is safe to say that you agree that one factions needs do not make a region valuable.

Yield!

Truly, thou hast bested me with thine superior rhetorical prowess; indeed thy argument doth puncture holes within my own like a spray of ammunition through swiss cheese! Thou hast pierced my left ventricle, impaled my soul with thy verbal rapier, in the figurative sense, yo!

[Lancome]

I'm actually really surprised that nobody's mentioned Bern yet. Landlocked castles bordered by 3 other landlocked castles (all of which are in a better position to control the area's choke points) don't rank very highly in my book.

WHAT? Bern is useful... it enables me to have a place to replace my troops before I end up striking At Metz or any other settlement.

[Marauder]

I found Bern to be very useful when I was England. I had annihilated the French and was working my way south to take out Italy. Marseilles is a poor base since it is usually an underdeveloped city. From Bern you can launch attacks on Milan, Venice, and the rest of Italy. Any faction starting west or north of Italy could use Bern for the same purpose.

[Ratwar]

WHAT? Bern is useful... it enables me to have a place to replace my troops before I end up striking At Metz or any other settlement.

But would your troops need replacing if you hadn't attacked Bern? ;)

(Okay, so maybe I'm just being difficult at this point.)

[Askthepizzaguy]

That's OK Ratwar, some of us have been clamoring for a higher difficulty setting!



I can honestly live without Inverness or Dublin, no matter if I am England or Scotland. They are just too worthless and isolated. I often ignore them until later on, or if I am just working on capturing every settlement.

[ArtistofWarfare]

That's OK Ratwar, some of us have been clamoring for a higher difficulty setting!



I can honestly live without Inverness or Dublin, no matter if I am England or Scotland. They are just too worthless and isolated. I often ignore them until later on, or if I am just working on capturing every settlement.

Pizza, perhaps a mod would provide a more difficult campaign for you.

Look around. Some really good ones discussed on these very forums. If you have any other questions about the .org, feel free to ask an experienced member.

Oh: And I'll give you an early welcome into the world of M2TW modding. Welcome

[Kadagar_AV]

Dear AoW,

obviosly you have not heard of the "askthepizzaguy-mod".

I recomend you try it, and then come back.

Really, if you manage to win using that mod, you will get some respect back.

I must say, that of all the comments you made tonight, this one is no. 1:)

*I dont have the URL to the mod, but I am sure ATPG will do anything to help you install it, along with the mod creator*

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...8&postcount=22

http://hosted.filefront.com/JakeCavCom/

We are still tweaking the horde to be more aggressive. Until that part is finished, you may consider this beta.

It comes with a readme, and a lovely turn 1 surprise.

[Yoyoma1910]

You guys have, like, totally missed the point here.


Why are you guys, like, talking about castles and stuff.


Genoa is, like, totally the least attractive region.

I mean, like, it looks like somebody's toe nail clipping. *!!!!ga-ROSS!!!!!*



I mean, and like, what do they even eat there? Salomi? Who's gonna, like, take that to the prom?

*ugh*

[Ferret]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...8&postcount=22

http://hosted.filefront.com/JakeCavCom/

We are still tweaking the horde to be more aggressive. Until that part is finished, you may consider this beta.

It comes with a readme, and a lovely turn 1 surprise.

Pfft Ibn the True Blitzmaster, as I like to call him, would find that easy. I'd be willing to bet he could conquer the whole map in the first turn, and not lose a single province for the next 1000 turns

Back to topic: Arguin, I have never ever been to that village, nor wanted to.

[coldpolar]

i've always felt florence is a bit pointless. so much less important than all the other italian cities and never becomes very interesting anyway.