Back On Track

[Puzz3D]

i think one big mashup file of units, with people negotiating rules before the games begin,
will probably be a decent enough way to go?
we used to have limits on guns, max units of one type and so on many moons ago,
surely we can be trusted to do so now?

Rules were used because the game was unbalanced. I'm against unbalancing the game and compensating for that by using rules. It would ruin the Sengoku Period gameplay which we spent over 3 years refining.

[Togakure]

Rules were used because the game was unbalanced. I'm against unbalancing the game and compensating for that by using rules. It would ruin the Sengoku Period gameplay which we spent over 3 years refining.

Agreed. The balance of SamWars, eliminating the need for rules and preventing by design exploitive army composition, is one of the major attractions of the mod, imo. My two koku.

[barocca]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

[Jochi Khan]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

Here! Here! I couldn't agree more.

[Togakure]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

Gameplay is never 100% balanced; neither Puzz nor I said anything about "100%." The balance of beta5 is exceptional. That has been accepted by many experienced players who have played it online at length.

I think it is a pipe dream to think that very many players will come and play this consistently, no matter how good it gets. Experienced players won't hang around and wait for the mod to be balanced. We've seen this already. They will come and check it out, and if it doesn't fly to their tastes, they will go. There are too many other fine choices out there on which to spend our leisure time.

Releasing a mod that has significant balance problems is a mistake.

[Puzz3D]

frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

We use beta5 for MP and it works fine. Both beta5 and beta8 have exactly the same gameplay in MP, so we didn't loose anyone because of that.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

I don't see why we have to offer a degraded gameplay when adding Mongols isn't going to bring a lot of players to multiplayer. That will attract players who want and unbalanced game, and the players who want a balanced game will leave.

[The Receptionist]

I am seeing lots of soapbox speeches,
but little productive discussion.

Q1 - is there anything basically wrong with the suggestions made in the Mongol Unit Mix thread regarding unit types?
(1a) - why are you NOT suggesting stats and capabilities for the various proposed units?

Q2 - Is there anything wrong with the "test" mongol units that were added by Technomage?
(2a) - what is wrong? (2b) how to fix?

Q3 - Are there any untis missing from Technomage's Mongols Line up?

Q4 - you afficiando's of the mod can surely be trusted to be honourable at the start of a game and declare "no mongols"?
(4a) if not, why not?

..now where did i park my saucer..

[R'as al Ghul]

In my opinion most players that have played Multiplayer in the last 6+ months more than once have done so because the gameplay is excellent and they like it the way it is. It's true that beta_8 desynced and that that was frustrating and put some people off. But honestly, I don't remember anybody who hasn't returned after we switched back to beta_5. On the contrary, the fact that beta_5 can be installed without making vanilla unplayable seems to be easier for people and after the switch back we had an increase in players for a few weeks.
I don't think anybody wants beta_8 to work more than I do because of the (subjective) graphical improvement and flair and the work we've put into it. So after we've some conclusive robust online (LAN is all good and fine and TMS effort highly appreciated) results I'd love to play beta_8 rather than beta_5 and I'm certain that those who play beta_5 now will switch again with us.
I think that all who play MP now enjoy the timeframe, the setting, the reduced number of units and the balanced gameplay resulting from that. If we introduce the Mongols to that mix we double the number of overall units and change the gameplay to something entirely different. I'm absolutely not against the Mongols and will cooperate with barocca to introduce them into the mod. However, I think we should have several timeframes or eras. One would be the long tested and popular Sengoku era that we play now in MP (Why should we get rid of it?) and the second one would be the era where Mongols fight against the Japanese.
This also makes perfect sense from a historical as well as single player perspective. The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols. The balancing of the Japanese and Mongol units will take some work and active playtesting, that can't be done on paper alone. Sure, we can and will come up with some starting stats (Orda has offered some stats) from where to take it and for SP it will be easier as units are modified by General *'s and valour anyway, but for MP where we want intuitive army purchasing at valour 0, we will have to work hard to achieve that.
If the new era draws more players that would be nice and if in the end more players want to play the Mongol era that's ok with me, too. But it's going to be a long way till then.
We've been saying that we want to make more eras and units available for SP and we will do that. I'm certain that we can agree on a roster for the Mongols very soon and there's enough space for those units, too. Once those units are finished and can be played with, we'll give them initial stats, perhaps based on the stats made by Orda for STW, set them against a roster of Japanese units with the same animations as beta_8 but with different stats and see how it goes. Once we can test them online I guess that positive and negative aspects become obvious pretty soon, seeing that we have a lot of game playing experience among all of us.

I think that when barocca says that he wants to get rid of all other eras he means the original vanilla eras. That's what he's been saying for a long time and he also always wanted to have several SP eras, Taira vs Minamoto, Mongol invasion and Sengoku iirc. So, no need to get nervous about the deleting of the Sengoku era. The unit stats of eras can be defined independently from the animations. After all this isn't Rome or M2.



R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

P.S.: I'll make a patch with Techo_Mage's changes and then we can test those changes online and see if we got rid of the desync issue once and for all. It will be ready before next weekend and I'll make time to join you online for test games.

[Togakure]

Well "spoken" R'as, as usual.

I think it's important in these discussions to differentiate between SP and MP development. Confusion between the two may be contributing to some of the concern.

For the record, my comments are directed strictly at the MP aspect of the mod. I haven't been able to play the campaign because of a fault in my video card.

I'm glad to hear that separate eras are being considered for the Sengoku and mongols. From a software development and testing perspective, this should make things a lot easier, and preserve all the hard work and excellent results showcased in the current beta5 MP mod. It would be great to see this ported to beta8 with its beautiful graphics.

As a cavalry lover, I am excited to see the mongols being considered as an additional feature. I'm glad to see such respected authorities on mongol history offering their knowledge and advice, in addition to the mod developers who have stuck with this for so long with such dedication and grace. Cheers to those who will invest the time and energy into making it all work--it won't be a quick and easy project.

If I can be of use play-testing, let me know. I'm not experienced with this, but I imagine you can teach me.

[Puzz3D]

The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols.

The Japanese units have been optimized relative to the fundamental unit, the Yari Samurai. I wouldn't recommend changing the stats of existing Japanese units.