Back On Track

[Puzz3D]

frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

We use beta5 for MP and it works fine. Both beta5 and beta8 have exactly the same gameplay in MP, so we didn't loose anyone because of that.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

I don't see why we have to offer a degraded gameplay when adding Mongols isn't going to bring a lot of players to multiplayer. That will attract players who want and unbalanced game, and the players who want a balanced game will leave.

[The Receptionist]

I am seeing lots of soapbox speeches,
but little productive discussion.

Q1 - is there anything basically wrong with the suggestions made in the Mongol Unit Mix thread regarding unit types?
(1a) - why are you NOT suggesting stats and capabilities for the various proposed units?

Q2 - Is there anything wrong with the "test" mongol units that were added by Technomage?
(2a) - what is wrong? (2b) how to fix?

Q3 - Are there any untis missing from Technomage's Mongols Line up?

Q4 - you afficiando's of the mod can surely be trusted to be honourable at the start of a game and declare "no mongols"?
(4a) if not, why not?

..now where did i park my saucer..

[R'as al Ghul]

In my opinion most players that have played Multiplayer in the last 6+ months more than once have done so because the gameplay is excellent and they like it the way it is. It's true that beta_8 desynced and that that was frustrating and put some people off. But honestly, I don't remember anybody who hasn't returned after we switched back to beta_5. On the contrary, the fact that beta_5 can be installed without making vanilla unplayable seems to be easier for people and after the switch back we had an increase in players for a few weeks.
I don't think anybody wants beta_8 to work more than I do because of the (subjective) graphical improvement and flair and the work we've put into it. So after we've some conclusive robust online (LAN is all good and fine and TMS effort highly appreciated) results I'd love to play beta_8 rather than beta_5 and I'm certain that those who play beta_5 now will switch again with us.
I think that all who play MP now enjoy the timeframe, the setting, the reduced number of units and the balanced gameplay resulting from that. If we introduce the Mongols to that mix we double the number of overall units and change the gameplay to something entirely different. I'm absolutely not against the Mongols and will cooperate with barocca to introduce them into the mod. However, I think we should have several timeframes or eras. One would be the long tested and popular Sengoku era that we play now in MP (Why should we get rid of it?) and the second one would be the era where Mongols fight against the Japanese.
This also makes perfect sense from a historical as well as single player perspective. The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols. The balancing of the Japanese and Mongol units will take some work and active playtesting, that can't be done on paper alone. Sure, we can and will come up with some starting stats (Orda has offered some stats) from where to take it and for SP it will be easier as units are modified by General *'s and valour anyway, but for MP where we want intuitive army purchasing at valour 0, we will have to work hard to achieve that.
If the new era draws more players that would be nice and if in the end more players want to play the Mongol era that's ok with me, too. But it's going to be a long way till then.
We've been saying that we want to make more eras and units available for SP and we will do that. I'm certain that we can agree on a roster for the Mongols very soon and there's enough space for those units, too. Once those units are finished and can be played with, we'll give them initial stats, perhaps based on the stats made by Orda for STW, set them against a roster of Japanese units with the same animations as beta_8 but with different stats and see how it goes. Once we can test them online I guess that positive and negative aspects become obvious pretty soon, seeing that we have a lot of game playing experience among all of us.

I think that when barocca says that he wants to get rid of all other eras he means the original vanilla eras. That's what he's been saying for a long time and he also always wanted to have several SP eras, Taira vs Minamoto, Mongol invasion and Sengoku iirc. So, no need to get nervous about the deleting of the Sengoku era. The unit stats of eras can be defined independently from the animations. After all this isn't Rome or M2.



R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

P.S.: I'll make a patch with Techo_Mage's changes and then we can test those changes online and see if we got rid of the desync issue once and for all. It will be ready before next weekend and I'll make time to join you online for test games.

[Togakure]

Well "spoken" R'as, as usual.

I think it's important in these discussions to differentiate between SP and MP development. Confusion between the two may be contributing to some of the concern.

For the record, my comments are directed strictly at the MP aspect of the mod. I haven't been able to play the campaign because of a fault in my video card.

I'm glad to hear that separate eras are being considered for the Sengoku and mongols. From a software development and testing perspective, this should make things a lot easier, and preserve all the hard work and excellent results showcased in the current beta5 MP mod. It would be great to see this ported to beta8 with its beautiful graphics.

As a cavalry lover, I am excited to see the mongols being considered as an additional feature. I'm glad to see such respected authorities on mongol history offering their knowledge and advice, in addition to the mod developers who have stuck with this for so long with such dedication and grace. Cheers to those who will invest the time and energy into making it all work--it won't be a quick and easy project.

If I can be of use play-testing, let me know. I'm not experienced with this, but I imagine you can teach me.

[barocca]

i will try to be online for this weekend, i have to open some ports on my router first... (eek/!)

[Jochi Khan]

Just state days and times and I will make myself available to help with the 'testing'.

[Puzz3D]

The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols.

The Japanese units have been optimized relative to the fundamental unit, the Yari Samurai. I wouldn't recommend changing the stats of existing Japanese units.

[barocca]

I am very glad to see so many people passionate about the mod,

for the "classic" Mongol Invasion era there were a number of Japanese units missing, yet i always found the game quite playable,
(on the other hand I also found the mongols vs. guns 'n' monks mod quite playale too)
I feel what we need do is adjust the Mongol's stats to suit the changes in the Japanese force composition.
I have given them a much larger array of units to choose from,
please have a look in that thread and suggest what should and/or could be MP, and what should be SP only. AND STATS (att/def/morale/walk/run/charge etc


IF we feel that balancing is awkward then we can readily add units to the Japanese LineUp,

it is my hope that the Japanese will have an Ashigaru Archer unit, (a slight mod to a mtw bif completed already)
I may also be able to give yarisam a katana for a pure "Katana" sam unit, (add a katana to their bif),
Yarisam can already use a Naginata giving them an armour piercing option, (naginata is already in their bif)
ashigaru and yarisam can also be given pike's (and appropriate bonuses) very easily (adjust the weapon dimension in weapon.txt file)
ashigaru already have halberd and naginata in their new bif, giving us more options.

all these can be SP only, or can be added to MP to face off against the Mongols.
alternate era's could always be a possibility.
OR we could "SET" some clans as classic, and allow those clans "classic" units only.

we have many options, lets explore some.

[Tomisama]

I don't think anybody wants beta_8 to work more than I do because of the (subjective) graphical improvement and flair and the work we've put into it.

Some unit graphic improvements (cavalry I think), cherry trees and other Japaneese style terrain on a whole new set of province maps (not sure about size), if I recall

New maps alone could start a revival

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Tomi,

yes, we've improved the Cav animations, the SamArchers have a correct reload sequence, we've introduced the model pack with castles, pagodas and cherry trees and we've imported the STW terrain. I've done 2-3 maps and Tosa has done some maps, too. All of them large. Yuuki has reskinned all province maps (small size, to help with the fatigue problem) to emulate the original STW provinces.
We would need to reskin some maps from Mppack1-3 as they're not adjusted to the new terrain tile set, yet.
So, there's lots of new stuff in beta_8.

R'as

Some unit graphic improvements (cavalry I think), cherry trees and other Japaneese style terrain on a whole new set of province maps (not sure about size), if I recall

New maps alone could start a revival

[Orda Khan]

New maps alone could start a revival

Question: Map Editor.
Making new maps, using Beta 8 editor uses STW textures and models now? If that's so I don't mind making some

.....Orda