Dark Ages: Total War

[ULC]

If the Title hasn't stirred your heart yet, let me explain. I will be doing a Mod that covers 623 to 1078. I just started working on it, but before I really get going on it I would like to know public opinion on such a Mod.

[axel]

i would love to see this mod mate, like a said before on other mods site s i dont know how to mod but a will help in any way if i cane just let me know

[Sigma]

I already said I'd like to help, I'm in full support for this mod :D

[ULC]

Axel, what are your skills?

[axel]

Hi mate

at this moment i got none skills mate i dont know wot programs i got to use,
But i am getting 3d studio max i dont know if i cane make maps or units or other stuff for a mod ? maybe you cane tell me wot program to use and ill give it a go to learn

[Kavhan Isbul]

This is my favorite time period, for a variety of reasons. I am not going to be able to help currently, but I really hope there will be others who can help and this mod will come to completion.

[OmarPacha]

I think it is a great idea and I'll give my support if needed.
As the poll proceeds, some more details should help to better understand what we are talking about.
I'd like to know, for instance, on what map the mod will be played;
just because if it's going to employ the base european map, well, this means we are probably
thinking, with a few adjustments of region names and borders, of a Carolingian era mod, or,
anyway, of the first Frankish empire, that should be very interesting .

Unfortunately I'm not good to modify maps; my skill is on units and buildings icons for strategic map (review panel + Info pics) - as for battles (.lbm), while I'm not able to make shields or work on .buf pieces.

Cheers

[Gimli]

I think it sounds like a great idea! Maybe you could round up some help from some of the other modders like Blind King of Bohemia and Viking Horde on who would be good as helpers! I also am lacking in any modding skills, but I am curious as to what you are planning... Such as: what provinces? what factions? Let me know if there is any busy work (or research) that you need done! I can try at that stuff!

[ULC]

Here is what I have so far...

Features
For all you catholics: No Pope until Late!
For all you non-catholics: Many, Many, Many more non-catholic factions!
Considerable unit balancing - Every unit has a role, very little room for error, AI is much more intelligent in use and production of units
Unit rosters streamlined - No more redundant units, most factions now have personal rosters and share few units.
More to be added...

Eras
Rise of Islam
Age of Charlemagne
Rise of the Norse

I need help in deciding when the eras start...

Factions ( Colons represent changes from era to era, or the reusage of a faction)
Franks:French - Germanic Faction
Bavarians:Holy Roman Empire - Germanic Faction
Arabs:Umayyids:Abbassids - Islamic Faction
Saxons:Wessex - Germanic Faction
Britons:Welsh - Celtic Faction
East Romans - Roman Faction
Lombards:Italians - Germanic Faction
Visigoths:Asturias:Spanish - Germanic Faction
Avars:Magyars - Steppe Faction
Norse:Gotalanders - Germanic Faction
Basques:Aquitianes:Burgundians - Celtic/Germanic Faction
Bulgars - Steppe Faction
Khazars - Steppe Faction
Cordovans - Islamic/Germanic Faction
Taherts - Islamic Faction
Abkhazians - Islamic/Steppe Faction
Polanes - Steppe/Germanic Faction
Seljuks - Steppe/Islamic Faction
Armenians - Roman Faction
Papacy - Roman/Germanic Faction
Kievians - Steppe/Roman Faction
Tullnids - Islamic Faction
Idrissids - Islamic Faction
Rostov - Steppe Faction
Danes - Germanic Faction
Aghlabids - Islamic Faction
Volga-Bulgars - Islamic/Steppe Faction

Units
I have no concrete Faction unit rosters as of yet, although I have rough ideas, and a few factions differ slightly...

Germanic/Celtic Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Heavy Spears
Heavy Swords
Royal Cavalry

Roman Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Archers
Heavy Swords
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Royal Cavalry

Steppe Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Archers
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archers
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Spears
Royal Cavalry

Islamic Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Archers
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archers
Heavy Archers
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Royal Cavalry

Provinces
I am going to add several provinces and change a lot of boundaries, but I am having serious problems with both LMM and Mithal. Here is what each faction currently controls in the early era...

Bavarians
Bavaria
Swabia
Austria
Franconia
Switzerland
Tyrolia

Lombards
Genoa
Milan
Tuscany
Rome
Naples

Visigoths
Castile
Aragon
Portugal
Leon
Valencia

Franks
Aquitiane
Anjou
Brittiany
Normandy
Toulouse
Ile De France
Flanders
Burgundy
Champagne

Saxons
Mercia
Wessex
Saxony
Friesland
Pomerania

Norse
Norway
Sweden
Denmark

East Romans
Cordoba
Granada
Tunisia
Cyrencia
Egypt
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
Armenia
Georgia
Trebizond
Lesser Armenia
Anatolia
Nicaea
Constantinople
Greece
Serbia
Bulgaria
Wallachia
Crimea
Crete
Cyprus
Rhodes
Venice
Papal States
Sicily
Corsica
Sardinia

Britons
Wales
Northumbria

Basques
Navarre

Avars
Hungary
Carpathia
Croatia
Moldavia

Bulgars
Kiev
Peryslavl

Khazars
Khzazar

Arabs
Sinai
Palestine
Arabia

Since I can't do this all alone, I need a:
Artist for Unit Bifs ( Textures)
Artist for LBM map
Artist for Flags
A Historian with knowledge of the period, particularly culture, religion, and politics (needed for the Heroes.txt)
Another, full-time, Historian, especially one grounded in dark age warfare
And if need be, another historian on architecture
Possibly a coder for certian files in Loc
An assistant manager for times in which I am not here, who is skilled in public relations
And finally someone who can teach me how to put everything in an installer!

Also, does any one have suggestions for a Finnish, Slavic, and/or Baltic Faction? They were all tribal at the time, so its hard for me tell which should actually be represented. I need them to curb the Bulgars and Khazars from becoming way to powerful to early by snatching up the rebel provinces.

[Kavhan Isbul]

This mod has all the previous excellent mods such as XL, MedMod, PocketMod and P&M to build upon, so I think you should look at combining some of these mods' great features and innovations into the Dark Ages Total War one. I like region specific units, such as Slavs, Alans, Berbers (horses and camels both), etc. Such units ensure that armies would be more realistic and based on the provinces owned by a faction, rather than too generic. For example, the Muslim army conquering Iberia was predominantly made of Berbers, and Avar and Bulgar armies in the Balkans often included Slavs as vassals and mercenaries. I also like limited faction specific rosters such as many of the rosters in MedMod and P&M. They make the game harder, but more challenging and realistic. For example, Steppe rosters should not include any infantry, other than dismounted cavalry (and I really think all cavalry should be able to dismount prior to battle). From XL I liked the balance of the mod and Omar Pasha's beautiful icons.
I can help with information about the Bulgars/Bulgarians throughout the mod, even including heroes (info is scarce but the names of successfull commanders remain, and there are some quite interesting characters once Bulgaria converted to Christianity), and I also know a little about the steppe peoples' arms, armor tactics and strategy. I am afraid I am not of much help as far as Western factions are concerned. Since I am really interested in this mod, I am willing to help with basic modding as well, but I will need a tutor and a mentor, as I do not know almost anything about modding and will have to learn it all.

[axel]

I cane find as much info about the dark ages and give links ill be giving links this week, ill do somme research and post links

[Madshadow202]

Is this supposed to be for MTW or M2TW?

Angry lack of light

[Kavhan Isbul]

Is this supposed to be for MTW or M2TW?

Angry lack of light

Based on the dubforum it is in, MTW.

[Riadach]

Any chance of an Irish Faction, considering the Uí Néill held all of Ulster, most of Connact and Mide at this stage, while holding Leinster as a vassal.

[Antagonist]

Indeed, having the British Isles as exclusively Saxons v. Britons doesn't seem to make much sense by the time of Charlemagne or the Norse...

Antagonist

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have no idea how many slots will be left for each period, but personally I would like to see a faction such as Great Moravia (Dark Ages Bohemia) in that with a position in Central Europe played an important role in the 9th century. As far as the British Isles go, I think Rythmic is creating a really nice conversion of the Viking Invasion campaign. I would not mind Ireland in, especially with its unique units, as long as it is not at the expense of another faction. It is all up to YourLordandConqueror at the end.

[Gimli]

Looks like things are moving right along here! It looks like its gonna be a good one!

[ULC]

Actually I was considering the Irish, Picts, and Scots. The problem is actually putting these factions together without making them stagnant. For instance, the Irish for some reason during testing never wanted to leave thier island, even with many ships! The Picts and Scots had a long war that would be very hard to construct with the limited space in Scotland (At the most, I think I can fit in 4 provinces, but thats pushing it). The Irish, most definitely, as their island is big enough, and with a land bridge to "egg them on", they could be a very good faction. If any one has solutions to the Scots/Picts, then tell me. As to the Irish, it could be easily done, I just need a mapper to add some strength to the "Emerald Isles". But I digress, my first and foremost concern is getting working rosters. As such, we need to settle on factions first.

How "Central" is the Great Moravia Kavhan Isbul? I need something to curb Bulgaria and Khazar (besides themselves). A Baltic of Finnic faction would be nice, but I lack the knowledge of which one would be any good.

I also need to know about my unit rosters. I need to know what tactics and weapons Steppe, Slavic, Roman and Celtic factions relied on. I've got Germanic down (Infantry based, with emphasis on heavy units) and I think I have Islamic (Light units, balanced all around). But after that I need names. I am aiming for names that reflect the cultures they come from. For instance, the Bavarian Heavy Swordsmen needs an equivialnt name (or histroical one) IN GERMAN. Same goes with all the other factions.

As to the timeline, this is what I have so far...
Game Start:632
High Start:812
Late Start:??? (Crownig of the First HRE Emperor)
End Date:1078

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great Moravia can only appear in High, when the Avars are gone and the Bulgars firmly in the Balkans and Carpathians. I think Moravia actually appears in the gap left by the disappearance of the Khaganate when it was destroyed by Charlemagne and finished by the Bulgars. In the mod, it can fill the space between Bulgaria and the Franks. At its height, its territory included not only Bohemia, but also parts of Poland, Transylvania and even what is today Northern Serbia. Moravia managed to withstoand several Bulgarian attacks and acted as an ally of the Eastern Roman Empire, and it can deffinitely help contain the Bulgars in High, when they should be most powerful. In Early, I think the Eastern Romans will be enough of a threat to everyone. I cannot come up with an idea of a balancing faction in the Baltic or the Steppes, but the truth is, until the Eastern Vikings founded Kiev Rus, there was none.
I like the idea of giving the units indigenous names. The problem with Bulgar units is that Bulgar as a language did not survive, and modern Bulgarian is a Slavic language. Still, here is what I propose based on what I know. Cavalry only, most of which should disband into a unit similar to the well-known Bulgarian Brigands, but let's call them Bulgar Warriors or simply Bulgars. The cavalry is as follows:
Steppe Cavalry
Horse Archers - nothing special about these two, except that they should be cheap to train and cheap to maintain to ensure great numbers of them
Chigots (standing for brave men, for lack of better term), which I imagine as a unit similar to the Cherniye Klobuki from XL - medium cavalry with high charge and morale, but fair melee and defense. In reality most steppe warriors had bows, even the heaviest armored ones, but giving bows to this unit might make it a little too powerful, so maybe they should be left just with their lances.
Bagaturs (Bagatur meant champion) - this should be the elite heavy cavalry with armor, high charge and high melee, the retinues of kans and princes. Maces and axes were quite popular based on finds, so they should also have some armor piercing bonus and this will actually give the Bulgars an effective unit against the Kataphraktoi, especially if they are given "bonus when attacking cavalry". This should be modelled after the Avar Nobles or Cuman Heavy Cavalry from the XL mod.
The Avars and Khazars should get similar rosters, but instead of the Bagaturi the Avar unit should be called Avar Nobles, of course, and the Khazar one Tarkhans. These were the elite of the Khazar armies and often small numbers of such extremely heavy armed and armored units, with their superb military training, managed to win against incredible odds, at least according to some chronicles about Khazar - Arab wars in the Caucasus. This should probably be the strongest heavy cavalry unit in the entire early and high period.
Finally, to further strengthen the cavalry rosters of the steppe factions, the mod should probably have Steppe Heavy Cavalry with bows and AP bonus available to all of them, but with high requirements.
As for infantry, this role was reserved for the Slavs. If the Slavs are given a cavalry unit, it should have the strength of Horsemen, at best. Their infantry was what they were famous for, according to the Byznatine military essays describing the various enemies of the Basileus. It would be cool if the Slavs are given some sort of light axe armed infantry, with high attack but weak defense, which can hide even in the open similarly to untis such as Hashishin and Welsh Bandits. The Byzantine authors go to great lengths in explaining the various tricks Slavs employed to create ambushes and hide in swamps and woods, so this will be justified. I will keep the Javelinmen to give the Slavs or whoever controls their lands a decent unit for defending bridges and dealing with heavy armor. For the same reason I will keep the Slav Warriors, perhaps called "Voini", with a slight anti-cavalry bonus, to provide a weak spear unit to the Slavs and the steppe factions. If there is a Slav faction in Early or High, maybe they should have some sort of a Royal Heavy Infantry unit. Based on archaeological finds, the Slavs' equipment originated in the blacksmith shops of the Rhineland, which supplied all of Western and Northern Europe. Therefore, they should be similar to Germanic and Scandinavian elite heavy infantry, just not quite as good.
This was a long post, I hope it helps with the initial research.

[Riadach]

Well there was little Celtic connection at this stage but I can't account for them individually. There are three different periods really in Irish warfare, so the three different dates will be important.


Throughout the period, the Irish fought in a compact style, usually consisting of three lines of battle. Whether there was independent movement of units, it's unsure, but they were certainly worried about flanks etc. Individual heroes could also be employed in battle, usually seeking out other individuals.Whataver, speed and lightness of foot, as well as exploitation of geographical features was essential to Irish warfare.

612

Cavalry- At this stage independent cavalry was quite uncommon, chariots would have been the order of the day. These would have involved both missile fire from cavalry, or fighting, and would each have both a driver and a fighter, and would have been considered.

Hand-to-Hand- Most of the fighting would have involved spears at this stage. This consisted of two types, the craisech, a heavy spear used mostly for smashing and breaking bones, and the sleágh, much lighter used for piercing.

Swords were in use, but they were uncommon among the lower ranks. They were similar to the roman gladius at this stage and were used for stabbing and piercing, and not swiping or lopping.

Missile warfare, usually conducted at the beginning of battle, was conducted by stone-throwers, and spear and javelin throwers. Even in the 12th century the Irish were renowned for their accuracy and distance as regards spearthrowing, and it is likely this was true in the earlier period as well. They also had spear thongs so they could retrieve their spears on throwing them.

The other form of missile fire at this stage was the stone-thrower. Once again accuracy here was important, but we also have reference to leads balls being used as shot, something that would make them quite overwhelming. Bows were not in use in warfare at this period.

Armour- Would have been sparse at this juncture. Mostly waxed shirts and leather clothes. Perhaps the king may have had a lúirech, but it certainly wouldn't have been widespread. Shields would have included the round shield and the buckler depending on the wealth of the unit.

812

Cavalry- At this stage, though the chariot may have been in use by certain members of the upper classes, the horse as an individual cavalry unit came to a head with the viking invasions. These were the native horse, so they would have been light, and their riders would ride with a cushion, but could mount by leaping on the horse which was essential since stirrups were not in use. They use spears and swords at this stage, as well as being mounted javelinmen. There are references to a marcshlua ríoga, royal cavalry, who may be different from a regular cavalry who may not have been well armoured, and used mainly for raiding etc.

Hand to Hand. Much the same as before in regards to spearmen, the spears however being properly rivetted, and perhaps progression in steel production. The axe during this period, would have come to head, perhaps in imitation of the Norse axe. This would involve both the handaxe, and the sáfach or pole-arm, which indeed could be a response to the advance in cavalry.

Swords also improved in imitation of the Norse, and became much larger, but also no longer limited to stabbing or piercing but lopping and swiping as well.

Missiles were improved slightly. Spears were rivetted now, but they were also counterweighted for increased accuracy. Stone-throwers were still in use. Bows, also in imitation of the Norse, were also on the rise, though anomylous and far from widespread.

The Irish also began using the tight shield wall, or sceallbholg at this stage, in imitation of the Norse, so a strong charge became part of Irish warfare. Caltrops were also used, as well as field fortifications.

Armour- Body armour increased among noble troops, but still not respected as much as it should. Helmets occur among nobles, and both curved (cromsgiath) and iron-embossed shields (cabhradh) become very common the former among the nobility. The lúirech or scaball, (may involve chainmail but definitely armour, the latter covering the shoulders and coming from the latin scapula, the former from lorica. But once again noble soldiers, or the more professional fighters, would have used such. There is also the muince, perhaps a mail-hood, which was in common use and initially protected only the neck but later covered the complete head.

????? period

Cavalry. Chariots have now disappeared, and the cavalry become more and more an excepted part of the battlefield. Come in three varieties, the king's household, who would have been armoured, carry swords, overarm lances, wear helmets, and may have even carried bows(as they did with great accuracy and distance in later centuries) and medium horses (now being imported from france and scotland), used in battle and for raiding, and could be and frequently did, dismount. Then no doubt, would be their vassals bodyguards, who were perhaps not as armoured or as heavy as that of the provincial kings, but could also dismount and had similar weapons. Then on a much lower level would have been light soldiers, unarmoured for scouting and raiding duties (similar to later horseboys).

Fighting- Much the same, better quality weapons no doubt, and swords and axes were becoming increasingly cheaper and more common.

Missiles= Improved darting and spear qualities. Warbows now being considered an important weapon, may have been reflected in unit makeup. In later centuries, it was the ceithearn, who carried bows, (and later on muskets) so perhaps this was the case at this stage too.

Armour- became much cheaper and more widespread, never quite reaching the lower ranks though. Crested helmets also become popular among leaders.

With the increase in wealth, mercenary soldiers, and not levy troops, as well as something similar to a standing army, become more common. These allow for much greater quality in equipment and weaponry among many soldiers.

[OmarPacha]

I just need a mapper to add some strength to the "Emerald Isles". But I digress, my first and foremost concern is getting working rosters.

As far as a mapper is needed, it might be a great improvement to add the regions with their historical names and borders to the whole map, starting from those defined in the Frankish Kingdom - Carolingian Empire, for example :

Western- Central Europe 17 regions
----------------------
Alemania
Aquitaine
Austrasia
Baiovaria
Bohemia
Burgundy
Carantania or Carinthia
Domnonia
Flanders
Frisia
Gascony
Gothia
Moravia
Neustria
Saxony
Septimania
Thuringia


Iberian peninsula 9 regions
------------------------
Aragon
Cantabri
Cordoba
Galicia
Mauretania of Gades
Murcia
Sevilla
Talavera
Vasconia (or Navarre)



Italian peninsula
and insulae 10 regions
-----------------------
Beneventum
Calabria
Corsica
Exarchate of Ravenna
Malta
Pavia
Rome
Sardinia
Sicily
Spoleto
Tuscia


Scandinavian peninsula 5 regions
----------------------------------
East Gotar
Denmark
Norway
Sviar
West Gotar


Sclavonian Nations 9 regions
----------------------------
Avar Confederacy
Borussia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Mazovia
Poland
Pomerania
Serbia
Slovenia


East Europe 13 regions
------------------------
Crimea
Finland
Khazar
Lazica
Levidia
Lithuania
Livonia
Mordvina
Severia
Sibir
Viatich
Volga Bulgaria
Volhynia


Asia Minor 16 regions
------------------------
Aleppo
Anatolia
Antioch
Armenia
Bucellaria
Crete
Cyprus
Damascus
Hellas
Iconium
Macedonia
Nicaea (Opsician theme)
Palestine
Paphlagonia
Peloponnesus
Thrace


Africa 8 regions
----------------------
Arabia
Barghawata
Barka
Egypt
Ifriqiya
Mauri
Tahert
Tripolitania (Itrabulus)


British Isles 12 regions
(Even if , doubling regions, we need
an enlargement that could lead this
section of the map out of scale.)
-------------------
Dal Riada
Gwynedd
North Umbria
Mercia
Wessex
Cornwall
Caledonia
Strathclyde
Ulaid
Connacht
Muma
Laigin


99 regions (+36 sea regions to rename only, if wanted) on a maximum of 254 allowed are anyway a huge number
and a challenging project for every mapper who would be so unwise
to try the job.
But lands and people were very different from early medieval period
and this mod gameplay should reflect that.

Cheers

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great suggestions OmarPacha. I like it the way it is, but here are just a few minor suggestions. First, instead of Bulgaria, Moesia will be more correct, especially in Early, as before 681 the Bulgars were visiting these lands only occasionaly on their way to raid Thrace. I also think that the Avar Confederacy should probably be split into Pannonia and Transdanubia in a manner similar to the MedMod's map, because I have always disliked the huge Hungary province and the Avars will be in the game only in early. This will bring the total number of provinces up to an even 100.
These are however minor details and the big issue is whether there is a mapper out there willing to try to create the map for the mod. If there is, I promise to not bug him with minor details, as in the above paragraph.

[Wladyslaw IV]

I would definetely like to see this, unfortunately there is little I can do to help.

[ULC]

Thanks for the info OmarPacha. If you could show me how you think these should all fit together, then I can start working on a map right away. My main problem with mapping is that I can't get Mithal to work for me. I can do the main editing, but I can't re-compress it AND keep the palette using UP or PSP without mithal. I can do the work, but I just need to someone to either tell me how to use Mithal properly or re-compress it for me. But first, I need a rough draft to work from.

I have decided to include the Irish (as Uí Néill, speaking of which, I need non-military information about the Irish too to round it off for accuracy, my knowledge of them is sorely lacking) and Great Moravia. There are easily enough slots for more factions, as with the above inclusions we have 10-15 early, 13-18 High, and 21-25 factions by Late.

Kavhan, would it be correct to setup Moravia (under a different name, possibly) in early? Were they solvent and united at the time? Just wondering, as I need more Slavic factions, as the Germanic/Steppe/Islamic factions have just over run everything, making such factions a little refreshing, I just need a few more... Oh, and thanks for the unit suggestions for the Steppe Factions. The only reason I didn't make them pure cavalry is because I wanted to make them more flexible and their seems to be no way to make Anit-Infantry cavalry. I have a half formed solution, but spear armies can still eat them alive.

As to everything else, I would like to here more about the factions and unit/unit rosters. So far I have been using proxy units for simulations, but that won't really cut it for the actually mod. Input here is what I need as this is what I am currently working on.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I will need to do some more research on Moravia, but I really do not think there was anything even resembling a state in those lands in the early 7th century. Perhaps a solution to the problem of Avars, Bulgars and Khazars overrunning the East quickly would be to strengthen the rebels - give them many, and strong, units and leaders with 4-5 stars and some anti-bribe vices. This way it will at least slow down the steppe factions. But I will see if I can find some sort of faction to improve the balance in the Eastern part of the map.
I also completely understand the problem that steppe factions will have without the proper infantry, but perhaps making some units recruitable to anyone in Eastern Europe, such as Slav axe armed infantry may alleviate the problem. In reality, the steppe armies relied on their horse archers when faced with well formed infantry and if the range of those horse archers is increased, along with some AP ability, to reflect the really astounding range and power of the complex bows, then battles will be really fun and concentrated far more on out-meneuvering your oponent, rather than simply matching his units with your units, so that yours grind through his - for example swords vs spears, spears vs cavalry, cavalry vs swords. Furthermore, spearmen should be moderately powerful, not to say weak, and with low morale, during the early period, as I cannot recall a battle in which a spear and shield wall decimated a cavalry army. You can argue it happened at Tours, but this would fall into the high period. It is remarkable that the Eastern Romans' answer to the Turks, Avars, Bulgars and Arabs cavalry heavy armies were the Kataphraktoi, rather than some form of elite spearmen. Armor was scarce in this period, only available only to nobles, pikes non-existant, and heavily armored horsemen charging with lances into men with only a shield and a spear usually had a devastating effect, even if the infantry managed to hold its position and take the charge (which I sure as hell would nerver want to do). Most of the time infantry routed at the mere sight of the iron clad riders descending upon it, and to reflect this in the game, I wonder if it is possible for certain heavy cavalry units, such as the Kataphraktoi and the elite Steppe BG cavalry to get a "cause fear bonus" similar to that of siege engines in the original game.

[ULC]

Since I will be implementing homelands for every unit (I hope this doesn't crash the game...) I have been toying around with some ideas on units and regions. Since each faction has a base of 8 units, with some replaced (3-4) with faction specific units, we end up with a range of about 160-200. I was thinking on creating units in certian regions that are available to only other factions. Say for instance that you are the Bavarians and you take over parts of Poland. You no longer have acess to your Germanic units (at least not your good ones) which are then replaced by "special" slav units. You get a decent selection from this area, but it's nothing compared to your homelands. You then continue your conquests into the steppes. Again, your unit selection changes, but it's even worse this time. As you continue to get further and futher away from your ethnic homelands, your choices become narrower and narrower. What do you think?

Is there such thing as an online translator? Such that I could input "swordsmen", select german, and !POOF!, I have a translation?

[Kavhan Isbul]

I think it sounds great, but it also sounds like a lot of work. Personally, I have always been a strong supporter of the homelands concept, because in my opinion it improves the game significantly. And I have also always been in favor of region-specific units. I love your idea, and I really want to see it implemented, if you do not go crazy creating all these units.
I tried hard to find something about factions in Eastern Europe, but in the early period there is nothing other than the Steppe Peoples. However, interestingly enough, there is something called Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, which in territory was similar to the later Great Moravia. Samo was a Frank, who happened to rise to power over the Slavs in Central Europe after a successfull rebellion against the Avars. His Empire was at best a confederation of tribes with him on top, and it was gone quickly after his death, the Avars recovering all of their former lands and subjugating the Slavs again. I am not sure if including this short-lived "Empire" would help the overall balance, other than it would certainly create further problems for the Avars and maybe the Franks. Playtests should be made to see how its inclusion will affect the game, but if it causes the Eastern Romans to crush the Avars and steamroll from the Danube to the Baltic, it might be wiser to leave the Avars bigger and stronger.

[ULC]

Actually, The Avars AND the East Romans need a little bit of powering up. I have the Islamic Arabs start with 4-6 full stacks, and the Bulgars usaually head west (which is good ). The East Romans are generally to far distracted with defending themselves to bother looking north to the Avars. The Avars themselves fight the Bulgars almost immediatly (the war starting in Volyhnia) and then become steadfast allies of the East Romans (the Avars usually win because Khazar usually stabs The Bulgars in the back). Once each threat is over though, they proceed to mercisely beat each other into a pulp, in which case either the Alemane, Bavarians, Lombards or Franks becomes the superpower.

I am leery of strong rebels, becuase the AI has a habit of treating them as if they were a real threat, and therefore builds enormous armies on borders with rebels, when it should be taking them. Decently strong yes, but not enough to cause the actual factions to slip into stagnation.

As to the cause fear bonus, I thnk we can implement it the same way that fear is implemented for horses fighting camels.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great, sounds like this mod is well on track and promsies to be a treat.

[Sigma]

Cool, :) I can't wait to play the mod it sounds like its going awsome now :D