Rome (the TV series)

[duncan.gill]

I was watching the very first episode of this series and they showed the Roman armies fighting in a formation where they were in a block and the front row rotated to the back on a signal. Does anyone know whether they fought like this?

[teh1337tim]

if i remember correclty
they fought in stand centuries of 82 men (standard bearer and officer)
the men would fight for a certain amount of time
(the rest would be pushing or pulling the front row to not let them go rambo)
then would rotate to the rear to rest
usually the lines are 5+ men deep so they rested for a good half hour before being commited to fighting again
this is how the roman army fought the greater number "barbarian" guals,germans,spanish,thracians/dacians, greeks, and eastern people
immagine trying to get some rest in a macedonian phalanx
i like to c u walk to the back with the sarriasa and all spears pointing forward or up
or some fanatic gesaetia (sp?) running naked at the roman and fighting for 30 minutes all the while fighitng a diffrent person every 5-10 mins
ya pretty tiring

basicly
the roman armies in defense mainly
rotated men to the front and back to keep unit cohesion and discipline

[QuintusSertorius]

or some fanatic gesaetia (sp?) running naked at the roman and fighting for 30 minutes all the while fighitng a diffrent person every 5-10 mins
ya pretty tiring

Never mind 30 minutes, 5-10 minutes of actual fighting is bloody tiring! Notice how boxing rounds are only 3 minutes? Even in that time you can tire yourself out when fit, and that's without wearing armour (heat buildup) or carring a shield (tiring your left arm) or weapon (tiring your right arm).

[duncan.gill]

Fighting is exhausting - I don't think that I realised how much more tiring it is compared to any other kind of activity until I started doing martial arts.

[The General]

Never mind 30 minutes, 5-10 minutes of actual fighting is bloody tiring! Notice how boxing rounds are only 3 minutes? Even in that time you can tire yourself out when fit, and that's without wearing armour (heat buildup) or carring a shield (tiring your left arm) or weapon (tiring your right arm).

True, but the dynamics differ under both scenarios. While you do not have the aforementioned equipment, boxers try to land huge hits on their opponents, and this takes considerable energy (too).

As for the topic... IDK. I only remember someone saying in a thread on this very subject (some time back) that the Romans didn't use whistles, but rather horns. Or something. I do not know whether the Romans did indeed use such a tactic, but it does sound practical - and thus very Roman, methinks.

[QuintusSertorius]

True, but the dynamics differ under both scenarios. While you do not have the aforementioned equipment, boxers try to land huge hits on their opponents, and this takes considerable energy (too).

Even just "standing around" close to a battle line, adrenaline flowing and hyper-alert to possibly needing to defend yourself is tiring. Mentally and physically.

Boxers don't always try to land huge hits, footwork and maneuvering is tiring too. I've fought full contact, it's hard work.

[Ludens]

As for the topic... IDK. I only remember someone saying in a thread on this very subject (some time back) that the Romans didn't use whistles, but rather horns. Or something. I do not know whether the Romans did indeed use such a tactic, but it does sound practical - and thus very Roman, methinks.

There must have been some rotation scheme, for reasons of fatigue. However, I doubt it worked this way. Basically, the moment the centurion whistled would be the sign for the enemy to charge, because the legionaries would be packed very close together and therefore unable to attack or defend themselves. More likely, the soldiers would make use of lulls in the fighting to rotate.

[Marius Dynamite]

I watched a documentry on the Boudica rebellion and in the deciding battle this was exactly what the Romans done and it was one of the the main reasons for their victory.

They probably did use this during this particular battle since its difficult to see how they would have won otherwise.

There must have been some rotation scheme, for reasons of fatigue. However, I doubt it worked this way. Basically, the moment the centurion whistled would be the sign for the enemy to charge, because the legionaries would be packed very close together and therefore unable to attack or defend themselves. More likely, the soldiers would make use of lulls in the fighting to rotate.

I doubt the rotation would leave the soldiers vulnerable. The move would be very quick for experienced soldiers. Hear the whistle (or horn), push the enemy with your massive shield and slip back between your line. Wouldn't take more than a second for the guy behind the frontman to be ready to fight the enemy and the guy moving to the back doesnt exactly turn around and run, he has his shield up until the guy behind is level with him. If the men are extremely tight together then the chance of breaking them is even less likely, it would just be a bit more of a squeeze for the guy at the front to get to the back.

I dont know whether they would have used a horn or a whistle or even just shouted, I would imagine though it was the centurions choice. He would know the men he was with and tell them listen for the whistle or the shout or the horn. I dont think it would be 100% standardized for every battle, could be wrong.

[Juggernaut]

I was watching the very first episode of this series and they showed the Roman armies fighting in a formation where they were in a block and the front row rotated to the back on a signal. Does anyone know whether they fought like this?

AFAIK, that scene wasn't based on any evidence, and it was made up by the writers.
But I'd say it's plausible.
They must have had some kind of system to rotate the men, or the men in the front rank would have to fight until they die.

[lobf]

I was watching the very first episode of this series and they showed the Roman armies fighting in a formation where they were in a block and the front row rotated to the back on a signal. Does anyone know whether they fought like this?

Fact is, nobody knows for certain how a battle-line acted. HBO presented one idea in their show.

boxers try to land huge hits on their opponents, and this takes considerable energy (too).

No we don't. There's much more technicality than just throwing the biggest blows you can.

There was indeed a rotating system. However I can't remember horns or how it precisely worked. But I rember that it was used.

I think you have a tendency to present hypothesis or hearsay as fact. You can't say you know how it works because nobody does.

[Caligula]

I know this is a little off topic about the Rome TV series, but is this Series any good, I was going to buy it as both seasons are on sale in my area. I've never been able to watch it.

[Vorian]

I know this is a little off topic about the Rome TV series, but is this Series any good, I was going to buy it as both seasons are on sale in my area. I've never been able to watch it.

It's a great series...my favourite character was Octavian's mother. She is simply the most entertaining, ambitious, cruel anti-heroine I have encountered and she has some great lines.

[Celtic_Punk]

not all of the men in the unit would pull back, triarii would kneel down to avoid them commiting to the fight too soon

[Rotondom1]

According to Adrian Goldsworthy, a Roman scholar who has written many books on the Roman military, fights are seldom as we would think they are. Clearly they weren't the individual one on one melees seen in Hollywood, but I think everyone here knows that According to Goldsworthy, fights were not constant affairs. 2 armies of 20,000 soldiers or more might take 5 hours for the battle to reach a conclusion, and certainly you didn't have soldiers fighting for 5 hours straight! Although I don't think it is entirely accurate to compare it to boxing. It certainly wasn't no walk in the park!

There were frequent lulls in the battleline, when two armies were suitably exhausted that they backed away from each other, sometimes no more than 5 meters. Here they would catch their breath, throw missiles, taunt the enemy, or try to goose themselves up for another charge. These lulls were actually quite frequent, as Goldsworthy notes that few actual casualties occured during the Melee, and that most of the slaughtering done was when one of the armies routed. This is why generals were picky about their battles almost to the point of excessiveness. What the position of the sun was, if there was an incline on the battlefield, if his soldiers had eaten a good breakfast, etc. Some times two armies would form up in their battle formations, stand there for a few hours and be called back to the camp without fighting! The little things added up and the importance of morale was key; what separated a great general from a bad one was knowing how and when to pick your battles. Incidently, that's why the Romans lost the battle of Adrianople; Emperor Valens had marched his Romans nearly 10 miles without water and led the charge right in the heat of the day against Gothic warriors who had been resting in their camp all morning.

Any way, in light of this observation, I think it is wholly plausible that during the lulls in the battle, Centurions would call for their soldiers to rotate. However, I also believe that only the most disciplined armies were probably capable of such a feat in the heat of the melee (they wouldn't have needed Optios in the back goading on stragglers with a vine cane if they didn't!), especially in the din battle where the screaming, clattering of metal, the enemy in front of them, and the ungodly stench of the slaughter would have been overwhelming the soldier. However, if there was one Roman Army in its history who would have been disciplined enough to pull off such a manuever, it would have been Caesar's legions, who had spent 8 long years fighting Gauls and by then were hardened veterans.

Anyway, I loved HBO's Rome. You'll never see a more historically accurate portrayal of Rome, character liberties notwithstanding. Gods, they were merciless on Mark Anthony!

[NarcosCatolicos]

I think you have a tendency to present hypothesis or hearsay as fact. You can't say you know how it works because nobody does.

Who are you to say that what I say is hearsay. And btw, what tendency? Do I know you? What I say comes from the same documentary someone else saw on the history channel about Boudica.

Also, Goldsworthy states in his book "Roman Warfare" that Romans constantly used their shield to bash to create room and/or destabalize their opponent, sometimes killing them outright. Also the Roman army in the time of Boudica was very different from the armies seen in the first Punic war so I'm sure the rotating system wasn't used in the earlier wars.

[lobf]

Who are you to say that what I say is hearsay. And btw, what tendency? Do I know you? What I say comes from the same documentary someone else saw on the history channel about Boudica.

I was replying to Moros. Looking back on it, it's not stated in a way conducive to a level-headed argument anyways. My apologies for that.

The point is, as far as I know, that tactics at that level aren't addressed directly by any primary sources. Thoughtful guesses can be made, but it can't be said with certainty "that's how it was done."

[NarcosCatolicos]

Ooops can't believe how I misread that!
*Cowers in shame*

[The General]

No we don't. There's much more technicality than just throwing the biggest blows you can.

I didn't say there wasn't technicality involved, I merely argued, that boxing's dynamics differ from shieldwall-shieldwall (or well, the Western European-style of combat back in the EB day).

More 8 than 10. But even three close packed lines wearing decorated helmets would make it impossible for someone standing behind them to see what's going on.

Too true.

Not to mention if there were taller guys in front of you - if they can limit visibility in a (movie/"real") theater where the benches are in inclining rows, they sure as hell will do that on flag ground.

[Vorian]

I don't mean they could see clearly but at least they could figure out if they were losing or not.

[konny]

You missed the point: They were responsible for winning or losing. As long as they were pushing everything was fine - if they did not push the formation into pikes. As soon as they stopped (for what reason ever) they lost.

[Cadwalader]

Not to mention if there were taller guys in front of you - if they can limit visibility in a (movie/"real") theater where the benches are in inclining rows, they sure as hell will do that on flag ground.

I wonder if they tried to get the best places in the phalanx? And if a hoplite was unlucky and got the place right behind Argyros with his big-ass plume, he would tap his back and ask him: "hey, can you take that off for a second? I'm trying to watch the battle"?
Some things we take as completely modern are old as the pyramids.