Why are Theurophoroi so weak?

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't know if it's one of the mysteries of the RTW engine at work here. Theurophoroi:

Thureophoroi were a new class of Hellenic infantry that was designed to both augment the phalanx and provide a type of soldier in between the phalangite and the peltastai that was able to both skirmish and fight in melee effectively. These men provide an extremely mobile force that can hit hard with their heavy javelins then rush in to flank pike units. They are well armed and armored for the task, having stout bronze helms, linen armor, an almond shaped thureos shield, heavy javelins, and a stout spear. They are highly versatile infantry, akin in spirit to the legionaries of Rome. They are a highly effective force of heavy infantry that is in the forefront of Hellenic military know-how.

Historically, Thureophoroi were used as harassing and flanking troops by the successor states. Though they were often described by Latin writers as copies of the legion, it is debatable whether they were developed with knowledge of warfare in Italy or not. Most Thureophoroi were Pezhetairoi, middle class property owners with voting rights, and as such, they were well able to devote time to training and practice and were highly disciplined and courageous troops. Despite their obvious advantages, or perhaps because of them, there was a lot of confusion as to how to utilize these new soldiers. As were deadly in the extreme to the less mobile phalanx units they forced a, much resisted, revaluation of Hellenic warfare. Perhaps for this reason the Diodachoi tended to used them conservatively, except for the Seleukidai, who took to these new soldiers quite well. The city-states of Hellas used them even more frequently against the armies of Makedonia, and were often able to hold the more powerful kingdom at bay. Still, their uses were limited in scope and not as widespread as their versatile and deadly role would have indicated. This is the fault of period commanders, however, and a more astute or innovative commander might have realized their potential in conjunction with the more static phalanx.

Are supposed to be decent units. Good armour (21 defense in total), decent attack (14), have javelins for added flexibility, don't tire easily and reasonable morale. Yet use them in battle, and they're pitiful.

I've found that Keltohellenikoi who have worse defense by two points, and a less effective spear, achieve a lot more.

Anyone have any ideas why that is? Why are Theurophoroi statistically good, but useless in reality?

[V.T. Marvin]

I am little bit puzzled, that you have got such "pitiful" performance from these guys. It has to some tactical glitch (which I do not dare to suspect from a player so vastly experienced as you are ) or really some RTW engine mystery, because in my personal experience it is the exact opposite:
Theureoporoi are one of the best, strongest, and the most flexible uits in the game, with exceptionally good morale and they proved their worth on countless occasions in ALL my campaigns so far!!!

So I would only suggest: give them one more chance, Quinte, they will prove their worth! Eventually.

[Timoleon]

I have the same feeling about Thureophoroi as QuintusSertorius. I play a lot with hellenistic factions and always I get disappointed by them. They seem unreliable when holding the line and they kill people slowly when flanking the enemy.

[Mediolanicus]

I use Celto-Hellenic hoplites as line infantry and they work very well for me.
Theureoporoi, on the other hand, have a more free role on my battle fields. They are skirmishers, flankers and attacking units.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hmmm, they should be in the centre of my line, but in place of them I have four Classical Hoplites, who are brilliant. Heavy armour and excellent morale. They may not have javelins, but they'll fight forever.

[konny]

I've found that Keltohellenikoi who have worse defense by two points, and a less effective spear, achieve a lot more.

Did you use both in the exact same situation? In a fair fight Thureophoroi kill Keltohellenikoi without much trouble.

I use Thureophoroi very much in my Mak campaign (Maks don't have Thorakitai) and they do an excellent job as flankers. They are not as good as Hoplites in a pitched fight because of their loser formation and smaller shields, but their javelins can take out a lot of weaker armoured enemies before the clash, like the Eastern axemen that my Seleucid enemies love to field in large numbers, what let them get out of the fight with even lower casualties than the Hoplites would have suffered.

I also found Thureophoroi to be the best cavalry killers in my line up. Here their more open formation helps, because it is more difficult for the horsemen to get into the flanks of the spearmen formation during the fighting. A fresh unit of Thureophoroi is able stand a charge of a full unit of Hetairoi or the same number of BGs and still win the fight.

Thureophoroi will not win against Romans or any other decent swordfighters and phalanx head on (nor will other units of spearmen, save Hoplites with a lot of luck, superior numbers and severe casualties). In a phalanx army they are best used on the extreme wings of the formation and as a mobile reserve in the second line - also to defend the archers from enemy cavalry. Against more mobile enemies (save Romans), Thureophoroi mixed with Peltastai (preferably Thrakians) can make up the main battle line.

[Victor1234]

Well, I often use just Thureophoroi in my early Seleucid armies. These, eastern slingers and Prodromoi form the infantry, missle and calvary units of my western armies, and they've worked very well so far. Against the Ptolemaic, Pontus, KH, Carthage and rebel areas in Greece, Asia Minor and Egypt, they can beat any infantry put against them in the early game.

Later, of course, I upgrade to the Thorakitai and much later (before undertaking a war against the Macedonians or the Dacians or the Romans), to the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, but in the early game they're very cost-effective, powerful, and can be recruited right from the start in two western Seleucid settlements.

[Timoleon]

they can beat any infantry put against them in the early game

Do you actually use them to pin down Phalanxes, as well as flanking them? What are your casualties?

[Power2the1]

Also, I believe they are automatically on guard mode when you deploy them. If you are having them take the offensive, don't forget to make sure guard mode is off. Sometimes I wonder why troops are not killing fast enough then I remember they are automatically in guard mode in a battle unless I take them off of it

[Strategos Alexandros]

They are meant as quick flankers, Thorakitai are the line holding version.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Thureophoroi aren't exactly weak. Of course you don't want them exposed to the real bad boys out there for a *very* long time; but you wouldn't want that with *any* unit regardless -- so how come you find them pitiful? Their main asset is that they're reasonably fast (faster than most infantry of their kind) and really don't tire all that easily. Fighting uphill you will see a noticeable difference compared with Thorakitai: indeed I have had Thorakitai routing before my Thureophoroi did, only because they had become exhausted so much earlier in the game.

But you have to keep in mind that they are meant as mobile troops -- not infantry of the line (their formation isn't thight enough.)

[QuintusSertorius]

That's my problem; I need line troops and they don't fit the bill even though their stats might suggest they could. Keltohellenikoi are better line-men than they are, and they're not as well-armoured.

[Sir Edward]

I personally never use theurophoroi to pin down phalanx units, and only rarely will I use them to pin down units of hoplites. This kind of matchup really doesn't play to their strengths I find. Instead I find this unit is an expert at hunting down enemy cavalry, being more versitile and quicker then phalanxes or hoplites but still keeping a bonus against cavalry. They make great flankers early in game, being able to slip around the flanks and engage the enemy from behind rapidly. Against sword infantry, skirmishers, and levy hoplites they pack a nice punch.

[Victor1234]

Do you actually use them to pin down Phalanxes, as well as flanking them? What are your casualties?

It depends. I use them as line infantry if I have nothing else, there they can do well enough on their own and rout any early unit the Ptolemies field with about 25% losses, if unsupported. Usually I fire with the missle troops until their ammo runs out and then use them as flankers, but otherwise, repeated charges with the family member calvary and Prodromoi into the flank or rear of the enemy unit while the Thureophoroi engage the unit from the front will end up with a quickly routed unit and maybe 5-10% losses for the Thureophoroi, which will be further reduced by the healed losses.

If I have a bit more money, I usually buy some mercenary infantry and they become the cannon fodder to pin down the front units while the rest of my guys circle around and hit them from the rear or flank. In these situations, the Thureophoroi take very few losses since the mercs are doing the dirty work, though sometimes if the enemy has calvary I haven't been able to engage and they'll flank my flankers in a charge.

I'm playing on medium battle difficulty, as apparantely, anything higher will disrupt the delicate balance of values that the EB guys have built up.

[Foot]

That's my problem; I need line troops and they don't fit the bill even though their stats might suggest they could. Keltohellenikoi are better line-men than they are, and they're not as well-armoured.

Well then don't use theurophoroi. You wouldn't use chariots to hold the line, would you? Their weakness is their formation, but this formation is also their strength as they are mobile attackers. Using any unit correctly is to use a unit's advantages to overcome their disadvantages.

Foot

[Mediolanicus]

I'm playing on medium battle difficulty, as apparantely, anything higher will disrupt the delicate balance of values that the EB guys have built up.

If you'd play on a higher difficulty, you'd just get frustrated seeing your fullstack of elites getting slaughtered by 2 units of akontistai.
And after that some people come complaining here about how unbalanced EB is...

[konny]

That's my problem; I need line troops and they don't fit the bill even though their stats might suggest they could.

When you are facing phalanx, the only unit that can hold the line - appart from own phalanx - are Hoplites. Armour is not so important, it is shield and density that counts against phalanx. I would rather trust in Haploi to block enemy phalanx until assault troops can sneak around the flanks, than giving Thureophoroi the job.

Thureophoroi are fine as long they are not encountering phalanx head on or decent swordfighters. Use them like you would use Peltasts and expect them to preform much better than normal Peltasts do. I found them best when used together with Peltasts, axemen, Uazali, Galatians and the like - in particular when the enemy is trying to counter your flankers with cavalry.

[woirble]

I've used them extensively in a Makedonia campaign. I usually had 3 or 4 units on one wing to flank and hold off cavalry and I thought they did a good job.

They can pepper the flanks and rear of heavy units moving to engage your pike line and then charge in from behind once those heavy units have engaged your pike units.

I liked them. I though them much more useful than peltasti.

[QuintusSertorius]

Meh, I've got Thracian peltasts with their AP swords and more javelins for flanking, or any number of other troops better-suited for the job. Perhaps because I don't use any phalanxes I don't get the same value out of them I might. Invariably I've got more than enough cavalry to drive off anti-flanking cavalry anyway. The AI doesn't seem to recruit more than three or four units in any one stack, and I've usually got five in a full one.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

Its the -4 defensive penalty spearmen get against sword armed units that does it, plus the formation. But even hoplites to me should last a little bit longer than they do against romans. Anyways, I can only use thureophoroi to flank phalanxes with their javelins. If I charge before they're about to break, they get slaughtered when the rear soldiers switch to swords. Peltasts seem a better option.

[Olaf The Great]

Its the -4 defensive penalty spearmen get against sword armed units that does it, plus the formation. But even hoplites to me should last a little bit longer than they do against romans. Anyways, I can only use thureophoroi to flank phalanxes with their javelins. If I charge before they're about to break, they get slaughtered when the rear soldiers switch to swords. Peltasts seem a better option.

I thought it was it was a lowered attack vs. other infantry, which is why spearmen attack is beefed up.

[Tyrfingr]

Thureophoroi are decent for holding the line. I don't spread them out very much though, and tries to keep them at a perfect square formation..

[Hooahguy]

@ the OP:
theyre not weak: YOU are weak!
jk lol

[Spizania]

Thats wierd, in my now lost Epeirot campaign, I ended up using Thureophoroi alot because they would hold the line far longer than anything else at my disposal, ive seen them break Pedites Extraordinarii without suffering significant casualties, I used to have to use them to cover my retreats when I was stupid enough to constantly try and take the fight to the Romans in the field :(

[Irishmafia2020]

In my experience playing Hellenic armies (KH, Baktria, Maks) I have found the Theurophoroi to be solid cheap units. They don't cost a lot, and I expect them to suffer 50% casualties. If you want solid line infantry, you will have wait until you get Thoraktai (if you are a faction that gets them). Otherwise, you are stuck with the limitations of your faction MICs. I myself find that Hoplites (classical and even FM bodyguard) do not fare well against phalanxes. They make great heavy infantry, but used frontally against Phalanxes even the toughest hoplites get chewed up. I tend to use hoplite phalanxes (non-phalanx despite the name) in my current KH campaign to try to counter what the Maks, Epirotes and AS throw my way. You might want to try them out as mercenaries...

[Tellos Athenaios]

I thought it was it was a lowered attack vs. other infantry, which is why spearmen attack is beefed up.

Well yes, but against most spearmen: -4 v. -4 kind sorts itself out, doesn't it?

Anyway I also find that it is preferable to use Peltastai for the 'real' flanking work (swift sword armed infantry, packing a real punch); plus they are of course exceedingly incredible when you use them to throw javelins at the enemy from behind your main line. Javelins tossed in the back of enemy units doesn't exactly weaken their awesomeness either.

Still Thuerophoroi have their uses in my army; I prefer a layered approach to them whenever I can afford it. A decent battle line of mainly phalanxes, behind them the Peltastai to act as mobile reserves, on the wings a few Thuerophoroi/Thorakitai units plus some sword armed infantry (Uazali, Cretan archers). In front a couple of missile units, preferably a mix of slingers & easter/caucasian archers.

To top it off a couple of medium-heavy cavalry units per wing, and finally a family member & his bodyguard. That makes about 25 units.

[chenkai11]

I consider Theurophoroi as medium infantry in my Epeiros Army. I always deploy them in the right flank to hold any enemy flankers and protecting my center phalanx. At the same time they serve as flankers too. But indeed, in holding the line they are weaker compare to classical hoplites, and their flanking attack is weaker than other heavy infantry.

Summary is they are all around medium infantry.

[Olaf The Great]

Well the way I use them is as "Line infantry" but only if I'm fighting certain enemies.


Lets say I'm fighting against vast hordes of unarmored levies, I use them and the Thorakitai in the first 2 lines to obliterate them before they even get close. If I'm fighting against a more decently equipped enemy I use the Thorakitai in the first line, if I'm fighting heavily armed and armored enemies I use the hoplites(whichever type I have...) in the front line, and conserve the Javelins for later use.

Peltastai are awesome, able to perform most roles reasonably well.

[QuintusSertorius]

Peltastai are awesome, able to perform most roles reasonably well.

They most certainly are. You've got a skirmisher who can also perform admirably as medium infantry. I opened the Unit Compare and put them up against a number of comparable units. Both Camillian and Polybian hastati, Thrakian peltasts and Karian warbands. I would have thrown in Bruttian pezoi, but they don't seem to be on there.

Against the hastati, they compare pretty well against the Camillian ones, not surprising given how cheap the early hastati are. Not as good with the sword (by two points), but it's a better sword otherwise besides mass (slight advantage to the hastati) they're on par. More, but lighter javelins with a longer range. Polybian ones have better armour and morale, and an equally good sword, so the advantage vanishes.

Against the Thrakian peltast, higher skill, but their weapon isn't as lethal. Thrakians are slightly better with their javelins.

Uazali I think are a good comparison because again sword-armed medium-ish infantry. Almost as good skirmishers, lots of them, slightly better skill and slightly better defense overall. Not bad hastati-a-likes, though they don't have the morale of the later ones.

Get peltasts into a blacksmith and their weapon and armour bump up a grade. Get them some experience and weapon skill and defense skill, along with morale do too. Which puts them solidly into medium infantry range. Couple of chevrons and they're equal to Polybian hastati, yet available to almost everyone and not very expensive either.

Compared to Theurophoroi? The spearmen have better skill; though with the -4 vs other infantry that drops to a single point. Same lethality. Spearmen have 3 points more armour and a little more mass. Peltasts have more, longer-ranged javelins. Equal in all other respects.

EDIT: I've decided I need to give Theurophoroi a proper go, especially since historically the faction I'm playing liked them. Plus if they are weak then it'll make my battles harder. Not as line troops, mind, but to take the place of Keltohellenikoi as people flanking the centre. I'm going to ditch the classical hoplites for Keltohellenikoi instead. Not as tough or dependable.

[Apgad]

I opened the Unit Compare and put them up against a number of comparable units.

What is this "Unit Compare"? I know what it sounds like, but where can I get it?