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  1. #1
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Current Status of the Conflict in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Israel has, and has had for many years, the capability to overcome air defenses and strike multiple targets within Iran. This is fairly common knowledge. The US presence in Iraq only makes this easier. I'm not sure where you're coming from Tribes. Israel does have the refueling capability and they've never respected Arab airspace so those two arguments are slightly off base.

    http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/...ec.2007.31.4.7
    come on PJ your blowing the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tribesman
    Of course , since the airstikes will require at least two inflights which lengthens the time and size of the package considerably , unless they go the really long way round on the way back (which would beyond their refueling capability anyway).
    He made an absolute statement here, let him back it up with a reference, you posting bails him out (unless he has the source to verify his statement of fact).

    My bet is it will be a series of but tribes has surprised me before with well thought out verifiable positions on other issues. I personally think he's fishing on this one but let him be the one to either dig the hole deeper or support his statement.

    He would expect the same from you wouldnt he?
    Last edited by Odin; 06-25-2008 at 00:16.
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  2. #2
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Current Status of the Conflict in Iraq

    Now I know one can find plenty of material on why Iraq is unwinnable, for the liberal press (I consider myself as a moderate liberal) has made sure that there is very little opposition in the coverage to this view, but here is a fairly balanced, sober look at what is really at stake. It is a much more realistic estimate IMO of what it will take to succeed, and why I voted that it could go either way. Much will depend on how well the American people can see through the rhetoric and decide.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    James Joyner | Monday, February 25, 2008

    Anthony Cordesman, a longtime Iraq War skeptic and administration critic, argued in yesterday’s Washington Post that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are “winnable.” It’s a tightly written piece that defies excerpting but here is the crux of it:

    No one can return from the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan, as I recently did, without believing that these are wars that can still be won. They are also clearly wars that can still be lost, but visits to the battlefield show that these conflicts are very different from the wars being described in American political campaigns and most of the debates outside the United States.
    […]
    What the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan have in common is that it will take a major and consistent U.S. effort throughout the next administration at least to win either war. Any American political debate that ignores or denies the fact that these are long wars is dishonest and will ensure defeat. There are good reasons that the briefing slides in U.S. military and aid presentations for both battlefields don’t end in 2008 or with some aid compact that expires in 2009. They go well beyond 2012 and often to 2020.

    If the next president, Congress and the American people cannot face this reality, we will lose. Years of false promises about the speed with which we can create effective army, police and criminal justice capabilities in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot disguise the fact that mature, effective local forces and structures will not be available until 2012 and probably well beyond. This does not mean that U.S. and allied force levels cannot be cut over time, but a serious military and advisory presence will probably be needed for at least that long, and rushed reductions in forces or providing inadequate forces will lead to a collapse at the military level.

    The most serious problems, however, are governance and development. Both countries face critical internal divisions and levels of poverty and unemployment that will require patience. These troubles can be worked out, but only over a period of years. Both central governments are corrupt and ineffective, and they cannot bring development and services without years of additional aid at far higher levels than the Bush administration now budgets. Blaming weak governments or trying to rush them into effective action by threatening to leave will undercut them long before they are strong enough to act.

    Any American political leader who cannot face these realities, now or in the future, will ensure defeat in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Any Congress that insists on instant victory or success will do the same. We either need long-term commitments, effective long-term resources and strategic patience — or we do not need enemies. We will defeat ourselves.

    Donald Douglas praises Cordesman as “scrupulous in his even-handedness” and Dave Schuler judges him “consistently a purveyor of sound advice on Iraq and Afghanistan,” assessments which I share. But Kevin Hayden says Cordesman is part of the “false promises” gang, noting that Cordesman called for just “one more year in Iraq” a mere four months ago.

    Perhaps that’s because Cordesman reflects the sober judgment of the foreign policy community. Here’s his conclusion in that piece from last October:

    The odds of success are less than even. But it’s worth a try because the stakes are immense. America’s reputation and credibility are at risk; it “broke” Iraq, put 28 million lives at risk and is morally responsible for the consequences. Global energy security — the continued flow of the oil exports that fuel the world’s economy — are also in play. We shouldn’t stay in a losing game indefinitely. I believe we should give ourselves until October 2008; if there’s no Iraqi political accommodation by then, we should get out.

    Meanwhile, we must play out the hand we have dealt ourselves.

    Is he already hedging his bits on the goalposts for withdrawal? So it would seem. But the underlying calculus remains the same: The odds of success aren’t as one would like but the cost of failure is high. So long as the casualties are low and there are hopeful signs, then, we may well continue to muddle through with calls for “another year” or, as anti-war wags would have it, two more Friedmans.

    There’s not much question that Congress will continue to insist on instant victory and administrations will continue to blame weak governments. The question is whether we’ll continue muddling through, extending the operations a few months at a time, long enough to succeed.

    I don’t have the answer to that. It’s slightly more likely to happen under a McCain administration than an Obama or Clinton administration — but only slightly. McCain would be a more reliable champion of the wars, especially the one in Iraq, but Obama and Clinton would have an easier time persuading what is almost certain to be a Democratic Congress.


    This kind of sums up my thoughts more than anything else. Now that we have acted in such a boorish manor, we owe it to the world, Iraq, and ourselves to do what is right. I do not say this lightly, but as one who is willing to do my part to help my fellow service men and women to succeed.

    The odds of success are less than even. But it’s worth a try because the stakes are immense. America’s reputation and credibility are at risk; it “broke” Iraq, put 28 million lives at risk and is morally responsible for the consequences. Global energy security — the continued flow of the oil exports that fuel the world’s economy — are also in play. We shouldn’t stay in a losing game indefinitely. I believe we should give ourselves until October 2008; if there’s no Iraqi political accommodation by then, we should get out.
    I am in favor of diplomacy, despite what some may think here, but we must first win in order to negotiate with Iran from a position of strength. Weakness is one trait that Middle Eastern people despise. They tend to respect the "strong man rules" philosophy-hence the success of Saddam for all those years. Perhaps we can show them a different kind of strength-something more akin the stubborn pateince of someone like General Grant of our civil war.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 06-27-2008 at 04:05. Reason: Added a quote from article
    Rotorgun
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    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Current Status of the Conflict in Iraq

    Israel has, and has had for many years, the capability to overcome air defenses and strike multiple targets within Iran. This is fairly common knowledge. The US presence in Iraq only makes this easier. I'm not sure where you're coming from Tribes. Israel does have the refueling capability and they've never respected Arab airspace so those two arguments are slightly off base.
    Not really Panzer since Israel has very few of the I versions of either the 15s or 16s and what they gain in range(which still is insufficient even with the full external combat capacity carried) they lose in ordinance and performance .As for the 130 tankers they are too slow for the strike aircraft and don't carry enough and the 135 are too few and have servicability issues at the moment . Even if they could get 6 of the 135s on mission it would be very borderline for even a limited strike .
    So not off base at all .
    Now I could add that the Israelis have said they cannot take out Irans nuclear program and at most could delay it for a year or two which is a very small return for the possibility of an all out disaster , but I will let you mull over their actual air capabilities first . The global security site has a pretty thorugh run down on the Israeli air force or you could go to the IAF website itself as they are very proud of the fuel capacity upgrades .
    None of which yourself or Odin have raised goes anywhere near addressing the size of the strike that would have to be launched, the time it takes to get there or how the hell it would expect to get back, not even touching on Israels worries that its curent arrow and patriot deployment would not be sufficient to deal with Iranian ballistic missiles.
    I suppose you could mention the submarine launched missiles , but once again given the nature of the targets Israel just doesn't have sufficient capability to do the job .
    What you fail to realise is that this would be an all or nothing enterprise and as Isreals friend cannot risk it for a while Israel cannot risk it alone .

    Just read the rest of your article PJ , a slight ballsup in there on the northern route .With refueling over the med on the outbound they run dry long before they complte the return leg .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 06-25-2008 at 02:02.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Current Status of the Conflict in Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
    come on PJ your blowing the whole thing.
    Of course.

    Let the games continue..

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