best faction to turtle with?

**ArtistofWarfare** · 07-12-2008, 06:24

Well I'm starting it up...I'll take it to AAR at some point but it's a Hard/Hard campaign with Venice and I am using Huge unit sizes.

Just at first glance here- is not "greece" and the Agean the priority for expansion, as opposed to any effort made to get lands north?

Again, I'll take what I can get early, but I might develop a very stubborn/stiff attitude with nations surrounding me and become extremely defensive (the let them come in if they want attitude again) while I focus on the Naval buildup and the push east. Constantinople is the end goal- and it's not that far away.

I would already like to control Rome, Constantinople and Jerusalem at once...I just haven't played the game yet so I don't know how long that should take, or what is fast/slow.

Edit: Rereading your post, yeah that's a pretty ballsy push to take Italy early lol. How do you not get excomm'd? But I do agree about Bologna and Florence if I'm going to approach things this way though. It's just a huge advantage early and yes- the earlier the better for Italy.

Remind me of the rule on the papacy again? Is it like mtw where he can only track 1 warning at a time or whatever? And 10 turns to cease or something...(I was considering the pope's friend strategy for a while early and trying to get a Cardinal elected 1st election.)

Edit again: Started things before - As said, H/H difficulties so I start with 8,000 florins. 6,000 of those to buy Bologna? Is it that valuable?

**Chaotix** · 07-12-2008, 19:13

Don't offer them a lump sum of 6000. Instead, give them a 6-turn tribute of 1000- that worked for me, and you can use the rest of the cash on turn 1 for other things.

As for early expansion, I've found that taking Italy before Greece is easier, but really either will work.

Taking Italy will get you 5 more high-money making cities (Bologna, Florence, Milan, Genoa, Naples), two of which (Milan, Naples) are ready from the start, as well as a good castle, Palermo, and two castles that you can change one or both of into a city if you decide to take Corsica and Sardinia. It's entirely possible to play the whole game without taking Rome, as in most cases it'll only get the Papacy pissed at you.

If you decide to assault Greece first, start with Corinth- It's a good castle and makes a good base of operations. You get 3 more cities, one of which is useless until later (Durazzo), another that's decent, but not as good as Italian cities (Thessalonica), and a third that is only matched by Venice itself in money-making ability (Constantinople). You can also get a good castle to defend from Hungary at Sofia, and you can take Nicaea to finish of the Byzantines, although it may get the Turks to war with you.

You should prbably take Zagreb early whichever path you choose, but it may get you into conflict with Hungary.

Usually non-agression missions from the pope are for 7 turns, and he can call them against you for multiple factions at the same time. You can get an alliance with the pope early on and gift him money every few turns to keep him happy.

Phew. Hope all that writing helps ya.

**ArtistofWarfare** · 07-13-2008, 01:17

Thanks for that post...I read every word and yes, it is helpful. I'm completely map ignorant when it comes to M2 so any and all information is nice.

I spent a lot of time familiarizing myself with the UI and Venice's starting position. I'm going full blast tonight playing so I'll send pm's to update where things went before I open an AAR later.

I'm honestly, stumped as to which direction to go first. You're right, Italy probably IS more lucrative and attractive...as well as religiously in line with my faction.

I have to say though that Bologna is just so isolated and the Emperor of the HRE is in the settlement. I'm tempted to launch an attack there, while securing all the bottlenecks that lead north toward the HRE's main lands. I would imagine capturing a Faction Leader this early and also taking the province, would bring in a lot of money.

The one thing holding me back from starting any war right now is the total lack of intelligence. I have to get some agents moving around and see who has what and where. I know the HRE is isolated in Bologna but I really don't know how hard they'll fight to retake it (if at all) or if they would continue to attack me on principle. What I do know from the HRE is that they really can't afford to be in a full blast Italic war early..or the rest of the "empire" fractures. So I may become diplomatic with France and Denmark/Poland etc and just start a war with the HRE...and then we'll see where Milan stands on things.

I really would like to win the first papal election though. Do more churches built effect this- as in, a higher overall Christian population throughout your Kingdom raises your reputation with the Pope?

**G^2** · 07-13-2008, 01:58

It really is alot better to buy Bologna than to take it.
1) You keep you global rep up, which will help you only fight one faction at a time (although you are playing VH/VH in which your global rep will go down no matter what you do making diplomacy worthless, I play M/M where diplomacy works somewhat.)

2)Stay on the HRE good side because you won't want to invade them anytime soon making them great early game allies.

3)Save up you pope points for when you knock out Milan. You want early florins? sack Milan and Genoa in two turns wiping out the faction.

4)You get four units of Xbows which can be used to take out Florance.

As for churches, they help you in a roundabout way win papal elections.

1)You can make more priests which gives you a better chance of having more cardinals, which increases your pope voting power.

2)When you build churches and recurite priests your pope standing should increase.

Keep in mind having your pope in power does not make him your pupet. Your pope standing will be around perfect so you can get away with more but it really is a limited advantage.

**ArtistofWarfare** · 07-13-2008, 02:30

Originally Posted by G^2

It really is alot better to buy Bologna than to take it.
1) You keep you global rep up, which will help you only fight one faction at a time (although you are playing VH/VH in which your global rep will go down no matter what you do making diplomacy worthless, I play M/M where diplomacy works somewhat.)

2)Stay on the HRE good side because you won't want to invade them anytime soon making them great early game allies.

3)Save up you pope points for when you knock out Milan. You want early florins? sack Milan and Genoa in two turns wiping out the faction.

4)You get four units of Xbows which can be used to take out Florance.

As for churches, they help you in a roundabout way win papal elections.

1)You can make more priests which gives you a better chance of having more cardinals, which increases your pope voting power.

2)When you build churches and recurite priests your pope standing should increase.

Keep in mind having your pope in power does not make him your pupet. Your pope standing will be around perfect so you can get away with more but it really is a limited advantage.

1) I'm on H/H not VH/VH ...so that diplomacy wouldn't be entirely useless, but the game would still be pretty challenging for me. I wanted to learn the game on h/h first just ...because lol.

2) I have definitely considered making the HRE my main ally early but the thing is that a) they are a natural non ally of the pope and b) If I was to attack Bologna and capture their faction leader, I just don't see how they can do too much about it. Their attack into my lands can only come from a couple of bottlenecks and what I do know about the map is that as HRE, funneling troops into the Italian peninsula and points East takes a pretty full blown effort due to the movement restrictions in the provinces they would be coming from. I dunno, it's just so tempting.

3) France and HRE will assumably go to war...a lengthy war. If I had Bologna and didn't pay for it, had already disrupted the HRE's royal family and am allied with France...things should sit nicely for me to be able to address Milan and Sicily in the south, while the HRE wastes efforts trying to attack me while contending with France (and whoever else they wind up @ war with). Further, this would allow me to build nice relations with France so that in the longterm, war is avoidable with them until I am ready.

4) What actually is the extent of this advantage provided by having the Pope be from your faction? I understand it's not a puppet, but what exactly is the benefit of this situation?

**glyphz** · 07-13-2008, 09:54

Originally Posted by ArtistofWarfare

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The AI in M2TW gets screwed up when a territory of their is isolated from others, especially if there is no sea connection between the main homeland, and the isolated settlement. Troops in the isolated settlement usually become very passive, as in Bologna. You might notice they'll just hole up in there and won't send any reinforcements. ( unless war is triggered with the faction that holds the settlement that separates the 2 meaning, Venice, you). If you get Bologna (by conquest or diplomacy), any troops in around Bologna will retreat back to their territory. This means they won't be gunning to get it back, but would rather take Venice 1st then Bologna . The AI likes their settlements "connected," and are probably be more willing to lose Bologna, as they can now "function" properly (no more issue of isolation). All in all this means the AI has lacking capabilities when handling separated territories

(again, separated by sea does not count), though this is issue is diminished partly in certain mods. (I hope this explanation is not confusing)

Building churches may help you increase your rep with the Pope, but you do not get a chance to vote for your own cardinal unless he (or secretly she

) is a top 3 Preferati. This means you need your cardinal to get a lot of piety via converting, purge heretics. As Venice this means, sending your cardinal into Byzantine lands early. He should be followed by priests, who are less likely to turn heretic, if accompanied by a cardinal. As a group, they'll convert quickly. Converting quickly means your priests gain piety quickly (Battler/Enemy/Purger of Heresy), and more likely to become cardinals if seats become available. More cardinals of your own means more votes for you, cause even if you have a preferati, he has to emerge the winner first, after a voting among the cardinal occurs

, before he gets to sit in Rome

**Chaotix** · 07-13-2008, 17:45

1. ^ what glyphz said
2. I don't think you can capture a general in a siege- all enemy troops automatically get executed, regardless of whether they routed first or not. So... it might be tough to capture the Emperor.
3. The HRE will be too poor to even pay the ransom even if you do manage to capture the Emperor- Faction Leaders go for around 15000 and the HRE starts w/ like 5000