Celtic Two-Handers

[lobf]

Let me preface this topic-

It looked like it was the tone of a few of the posts that got the last thread shut down, rather than the idea of examining this question. Assuming that...

The question of whether or not two-handed Celtic swords existed in the EB time frame has been itching me for the last week. I have looked into it a bit, but I'll be the first to admit I don't even know where to start. Many of you take special interest in these sorts of things, so this seems to me like the best place to ask- Is there evidence of two-handed swords from the La Tene period? I would have assumed big swords could have existed at any time, but now that somebody has presented the possibility that there's no evidence for them in this period, my interest is piqued. So is there anyone out there with knowledge of the period that can set the record straight?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

"presented the possibility"? That's a nice sounding way of putting it. I saw zero sources or mentions of texts or anything that had information about it - there was just demands, in a way we think is offensive and is why we are really irritated at dealing with it, calling them fantasy units and saying the unit possibly came from a recent atrocious movie. Seriously - you wonder why we lock threads, get pissed off, and won't reply to your offensive PM's also? I know nothing about those units, but I know disrespect that we are not due when I see it.

As we have said time and time again: "Show us why you did this" is tiring. "This (with "this" being more than half a sentence without sources, etc.) is why I don't think X is the case, so could you respond why you think X is the case?" is more likely to get a response.

Try reading this post, which has been up for well over a year on this same subject, and was posted by someone much more adept at dealing with this mess than I am: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193

[lobf]

"presented the possibility"? That's a nice sounding way of putting it. I saw zero sources or mentions of texts or anything that had information about it - there was just demands, in a way we think is offensive and is why we are really irritated at dealing with it, calling them fantasy units and saying the unit possibly came from a recent atrocious movie. Seriously - you wonder why we lock threads, get pissed off, and won't reply to your offensive PM's also? I know nothing about those units, but I know disrespect that we are not due when I see it.

Did you notice how my only post in that part of the thread was asking Elmetiacos to back up his assertion?

As we have said time and time again: "Show us why you did this" is tiring. "This (with "this" being more than half a sentence without sources, etc.) is why I don't think X is the case, so could you respond why you think X is the case?" is more likely to get a response.

I didn't ask any team members to show me why you did this. It was an open question to people with knowledge of Celtic history to answer if they could.

Try reading this post, which has been up for well over a year on this same subject, and was posted by someone much more adept at dealing with this mess than I am: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193

Thanks, I've read it, but I didn't take issue with anything in the mod. Like I said, I'm wondering if this idea could possibly be true. I always assumed the opposite, and I was hoping someone with a La Tene background could clear things up.

[keravnos]

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

[Celtic_Punk]

if it is historically accurate (im all for a huge claymore-weilding drunken scottish and irishmen regiment) i ll be watching for this addition then.

shortswords are fun, but (most of you dont have hte luxury as i do) swinging a 5 foot claymore around, cleaving heads off is pretty friggin fun!

[abou]

lobf, have you really been that ignorant as to your tone of voice in your posts?

[lobf]

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...er=asc&start=0

Well I searched that thread for every occurrence of the word "two" hoping to find it followed by "handed" but the search was fruitless. If I'm missing something could you point towards the relevant posts there?

lobf, have you really been that ignorant as to your tone of voice in your posts?

Which posts? Because I'm really making an effort to be non-confrontational here.

@lobf:

I have not had a chance to fully read through the link that Keravnos posted (so the picture below might be discussed somewhere in that thread), but I have seen the possibility brought up of two handed swords in this pic.

{image snip}

Which ones might be two handed? Take a look at the bottom row, all the way to the left. Those first three swords (the single blunted/round tipped and the two pointed tipped ones) are candidates. Again, I've only heard that they might be two handed.

In comparison, the blade of the three are definitely much bigger than the others although the handle part (or the tang I think it's called) might disqualify them as they do seem a bit small or 'normal' sized. Ideally, it'd be great to find detailed discussion on each sword in that pic and where it was found, as that might would help narrow things down a bit

Thanks for taking the time to contribute, Power2the1. Those blades sure are huge, but don't the hilts seem awfully short? That is, of course, my uneducated observation.

Edit- looking back, perhaps they are long enough. Are all those swords in the same scale?

[keravnos]

Well I searched that thread for every occurrence of the word "two" hoping to find it followed by "handed" but the search was fruitless. If I'm missing something could you point towards the relevant posts there?



Which posts? Because I'm really making an effort to be non-confrontational here.



Thanks for taking the time to contribute, Power2the1. Those blades sure are huge, but don't the hilts seem awfully short? That is, of course, my uneducated observation.

Edit- looking back, perhaps they are long enough. Are all those swords in the same scale?

Υes, they are in the same scale.
The theory is that (for the longswords) the champion fielding them (and it would take someone very close to the hi-king as those longswords would cost the equivalent of a small car to purchase) would use them single handed. Now I understand that the hilt may be small, but the wooden part of it is missing. As such, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility of a double hander champion. If anything, when dueling with longswords (as champions of Celtic Kings used to-hence their title) you would need to hold the sword with both hands. It would be too heavy to continuously use it with one.

I am pretty sure the double handed use of those longswords is discussed, but I cannot take the time to search for it. I can tell you this though. Reading through all that thread, is a journey on its own. A lot of stuff you thought the Celts were incapable of, well, they did it.

[Theodotos I]

"presented the possibility"? That's a nice sounding way of putting it. I saw zero sources or mentions of texts or anything that had information about it - there was just demands, in a way we think is offensive and is why we are really irritated at dealing with it, calling them fantasy units and saying the unit possibly came from a recent atrocious movie. Seriously - you wonder why we lock threads, get pissed off, and won't reply to your offensive PM's also? I know nothing about those units, but I know disrespect that we are not due when I see it.

As we have said time and time again: "Show us why you did this" is tiring. "This (with "this" being more than half a sentence without sources, etc.) is why I don't think X is the case, so could you respond why you think X is the case?" is more likely to get a response.

Try reading this post, which has been up for well over a year on this same subject, and was posted by someone much more adept at dealing with this mess than I am: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193

Good response, Teleklos. This team has put a phenomenal amount of effort into a mod which is unparalleled in my experience with computer gaming. I wish people would show some respect for that. You guys have done your homework. If someone isn't happy, then they need to mod the game themselves. From scratch. My two cents.

[Tancredii]

For those that have access to a copy page 58 of Peter Connolly's Hannibal and the enemies of Rome has a nice summary of the development of Celts swords. It is brief but does give the dimensions - unfortunately he does not postulate as to why sword lengths increased from 55-65cm (450-250 BC) to 80 or 90cm by 120-50 BC.

I don't think we can really submit statues as evidence of size - lets face it all men from the Greek Islands would be hung like a horse based on the statues your other half brings back from a holiday!