Celtic Two-Handers

[keravnos]

Slowly but safely, the image of "hordes of barbarian rabble" is being phased out in favour of "spear-head of equestrian warfare". And I am so liking it.

Absolutely so.

Now, on the subject of long/very long swords, I don't think there has ever been a doubt that the swords were really that long.

Mauryans used long swords both for fighting, but also ceremonially, so as to denote authority. If an official would come along carrying a big-huge sword, you would know he was someone important. As Persian Cataphract noted, they would be used from the saddle, as a longer sword means longer reach.

Mauryans faded but the longsword tradition didn't fade with them. Sungas, the followup dynasty used them, and so did the Indogreeks who conquered their western holdings.

Case in point,
From western India, Saanchi stupah approx. about 150 BCE comes this frieze, said to depict an IndoGreek King, possibly Menandros,

and


The statue isn't lifesize, but the proportion of the sword to the King is, according to archaeological finds. That being the case, we are talking about a pretty long sword.

[russia almighty]

Kern, haven't they found iron swords in India from like 1000 B.C at lengths wouldn't be reached in the west till the La Tene period?


Though, I've seen some crazy weaponry from India, so advance metallurgy would have to be required.

[Ibrahim]

I've gathered (yet to be confirmed), that them Indian swords were extra wide-then again, the person was no expert.

[keravnos]

Kern, haven't they found iron swords in India from like 1000 B.C at lengths wouldn't be reached in the west till the La Tene period?


Though, I've seen some crazy weaponry from India, so advance metallurgy would have to be required.

Indeed, Metallurgy in India at that time was the most advanced in the world, especially where Iron was concerned.

[blitzkrieg80]

considering the Hittites around a somewhat similar timeline and their special place in the early age of iron usage, could we then assume that India was directly influenced by Indo-European culture in concern to iron-working? Or possibly the Scythic Era/Eurasian steppe in general? Or were the native peoples of the Indus valley that developed completely separate from any Aryan invaders or practicers of steppe lifeways?

[keravnos]

One of the reasons why the Aryan invaders of India conquered the Indus and Ganges plains was their use of Iron. Haomavarga Saka ancestors' and their own ancestors must have been one and the same, as they themselves drunk Haoma/Ephedra and glorify that in their Vedas.

[Elmetiacos]

At last the question gets answered! The longest blades are from Port Nidau in Switzerland. Reading the rest of the Swordforum thread, though, two-handed use is only one possibility; others posters suggest their use in executions, from horseback (hmm... too early for Celtic cavalry?) from chariots (hmm once again) or simply as great big swords to be used as ornaments or thrown into lakes as offerings. Perhaps most importantly, the possible two-handers all come from before the EB timeframe. That, incidentally would be before the Celts invented mail which makes two-hander use on the battlefield even less likely: unless you need to cut through heavy armour, discarding your shield is not going to be worth it.

To set the record straight, I never said that all Celtic swords were short and blunt, what I said was that during the La Tene period, there was a tendency for swords to get shorter and for more to be made with blunt ends. You start off, c.700BC with the classic Celtic Longsword, leaf shaped and long and you end up with little machete-like weapons. Doesn't that make you wonder how Celtic warfare was developing...?

Calling the British "sword masters" a fantasy unit is still valid, since no swords anything like the Port Nidau models have turned up in Britain or Ireland. The continental equivalent, if not fantasy, is still both conjecture and anachronistic even if real (much more so than the lorica segmentata everyone gets so annoyed about)

Thank you and goodnight.

[blitzkrieg80]

Calling the British "sword masters" a fantasy unit is still valid, since no swords anything like the Port Nidau models have turned up in Britain or Ireland. The continental equivalent, if not fantasy, is still both conjecture and anachronistic even if real (much more so than the lorica segmentata everyone gets so annoyed about)

Speaking of fantasy, what would you call suggesting authority based on random internet postings? oh, sorry... was there ever a single legitimate academic citation? Maybe I missed when you bothered with that. EB does use citations in our internal forum. We don't have to prove it to you. We might have a collection of such available for the public in the future to dismiss the rag of some harpies, but we certainly don't need internet evidence held to your subjective standards. When you see anything posted concerning the internet by EB members, that's called a treat. Treat for you (us too)- it is no authority. Much more fun and interesting than nothing.


Concerning swords, so, what is the argument? That the small amount of evidence we have for the exact EB starting time period does not hold completely convincing evidence? and that somehow the technology was lost, since later there are no examples even though it was available earlier? Atlanteans! I suppose axes are similarly a lost technology... thus the Germanic tribes became adept at felling trees with clubs, since the Battle Axe culture was gone and there are no examples of axes... now we can come back to 'Celts Don't Know Axe' topic. What fun the internet is.

[HFox]

The continental equivalent, if not fantasy, is still both conjecture and anachronistic even if real

This statement confuses me.....is there a point to it. Or is it just fantasy to?

(much more so than the lorica segmentata everyone gets so annoyed about)

no......everyone does not get annoyed about it. I don't, I know he doesn't, so that's two of us, so the statement is a bit....glib

Thank you and goodnight.

Good point

Most of us just enjoy what has been given to us on a plate by a bunch of people working their asses off.