Poll: $140+ and rising - will oil ever be cheap again?

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  1. #1
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    One of the advantages of living on a mountain of oil is that things like this only makes me smile
    According to the CIA factbook, Norway is sitting on 7.7 billion barrels, proven in 2008. BP figures show global consumption at 31 billion per year. That makes your "mountain" worth three months, or to put it another way, it delays the peak by a whole six weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BP
    2007 Oil Reserves stand at 1237.9 billion barrels
    Reserves have grown 107.8 billion barrels since 2001 and 168.5 billion barrels, or 14%, over the last decade.
    Even proven reserves amount to less than 40 years at current consumption. How old will you be in 40 years? Does the thought of sky-high prices or oil scarcity at that time of your life really make you smile? Even if we could somehow DOUBLE the reserves, that might add another 40 years.

    Now, we know there are problems with the reserve figures - OPEC especially has had very good cause to to exaggerate their holdings in the past, as this is what determines their export quotas. And they have proved incapable of turning up the production by any significant amount. And I'm sure you realise that oil companies need new reserves to maintain share prices, it's a treadmill, yet there's more effort going into "marketplace acquisitions" than exploration. Mergers, acquisitions and "corporate cannibalism" are the order of the day, and this is not normally associated with a healthy sector of the economy.

    Although the past performance doesn't guarantee future returns, we should also compare growth rates. 1997-2007, average 1.4% pa more reseves. 2007 consumption grew by 1.1% globally. That 0.3% sounds good doesn't it?

    We're looking at a diminshing EROEI (energy return on energy invested) as newer finds are in deeper water, further from land, or harder to crack. Tar sands have an EROEI as low as 1.5:1, shales are technically difficult. Basically the new reserves aren't a like-for-like replacement of sweet Saudi crude, and that has to eat into the 0.3%.

    No-one is suggesting the taps will run dry overnight. But small shortfalls in supply have large impacts on price, and price knocks on through the economy. A lot of people are going to be hurt badly, especially in the more oil-dependent societies. EVERYTHING depends on oil - agriculture (ironically the more "backward" agrarian areas are better placed to survive, they already know how to farm without huge energy subsidies...), manufacturing, communications, transport, and yes, even renewable energy. We will need to make some very wise energy-investment decisions, placing our energy in industiries which will generate more energy. Other sectors will need to de-intensify their energy use, agriculture especially - the only option will be more human labour, more people working the land again (gardens are more productive than farms on all measures).

    If there is to be much of a future, it will have to be low-tech, localised and co-operative. The SUV of the 22nd century will probably have two wheels, a chain, and pedals
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    An amusing thread this...

    I don't know how many of you actually work in oil & energy. I do and although I am not a geo-physicist (never call them geologist, they will crap all over you), I know several. They are responsible for finding new oil or gas and knows a thing or two about where to look.
    I have been on a few lectures with them, and I have tried for a few days now to get a hold of the latest presentation I attended, just to show you guys a little from it.

    Granted, there are a lot of factors that need to be in place for our mother earth to create petroleum or crude oil. You need the ingredients, the temperature, the sand filters, the highways and the trap. All of which is needed to produce oil or gas. One of them missing and you get nothing.
    But the ingredients are plentiful and a map over the earth where these are found would be prudent at this point. When I get a hold of the presentation I talked about, I might make a thread about it.
    Anyway, on this map there are explored areas and unexplored areas. You would see that the unexplored areas are larger than the explored. Oil could be found all over the world. Some areas are easy to extract like Saudi Arabia (you just need to poke a hole in the ground and oil comes out), others need advanced technology to get the black gold out, like Norway.

    Yes the current world oil resource, meaning what we know exist in the ground at present and what we can currently forecast, will last around 40-50 years or so. But this is not taking into consideration that we have huge areas where oil could be, but haven't checked yet.

    There are 3 factors to consider when it comes to oil and gas in the future.

    1. New technology will increase the amount of energy we extract from petroleum. Currently only 12% of the energy harvested from petroleum is actually moving the car.
    2. New technology will increase the extraction percentage of wells and instead of only getting about 30-40% of the oil up to the surface, we can with new technology double that. (giving new life to old wells).
    3. Unexplored areas, e.g. North in the Barents Sea and on arctic landmass (for Norway), will yield petroleum for many decades in the future.
    Personally I don't get why the oil-price is so high.
    Why worry now over the shortage of oil, when in truth we don't need to worry about it until 20 years from now.

    I think it is a combination of scaremongers like the 14 or so that has answered positive to this poll , low dollar value and the unrest in Iran or Nigeria (yeah some fear that they won't produce as much as they have promised), that cause the price pr barrel to be as high as it is. I won't buy the reason about there being too little oil to go around.
    Dollars don't buy as much as it used to and since oil is nearly exclusively sold in dollars, the prices are high to cover the so-called losses.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane View Post
    Personally I don't get why the oil-price is so high.
    Why worry now over the shortage of oil, when in truth we don't need to worry about it until 20 years from now.

    I think it is a combination of scaremongers like the 14 or so that has answered positive to this poll , low dollar value and the unrest in Iran or Nigeria (yeah some fear that they won't produce as much as they have promised), that cause the price pr barrel to be as high as it is. I won't buy the reason about there being too little oil to go around.
    Dollars don't buy as much as it used to and since oil is nearly exclusively sold in dollars, the prices are high to cover the so-called losses.
    The following article about the general commodity price increase goes into the same direction.
    How Speculators Are Causing the Cost of Living to Skyrocket

    The gist of the article is that while strong demand certainly plays a role, the usual supply/demand dynamics are not the reson for the dramatic prioce increases on commodity markets, but that a good chunk of it is indeed caused by speculation (and the massive funds that are available to some managers and the need to invest them profitably).

    An excerpt:
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    From the point of view of fundamental investment analysis, there are good reasons to continue to bet on further increases in commodities prices. Resources are becoming scarcer, while global demand for energy, mineral resources like copper and coal and crops like wheat and corn will continue to rise. Traders on the commodities exchanges call it a "supercycle" -- a trend that will continue for a long time.

    The problem is that commodities don't behave like stocks or mortgages, the last two darlings of the investment community. It is often the case that many fund managers cannot (or choose not to) understand the specific rules of their latest toy on more than a superficial level. They trade in pieces of information that mean nothing until they are in possession of one of them.

    Sometimes all it takes is a heavy rainstorm in Iowa to trigger a rally on the corn market. A poor harvest could reduce supply. Less supply drives up prices -- and higher returns for commodities traders.

    In the case of oil, a foggy day in Houston's harbor is enough to trigger a panic in the market because it means that a few tankers will be unable to unload their cargos until the fog lifts. When a pipeline burst in Canada, "the price immediately jumped by $4," says Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst with Oppenheimer in New York with 20 years of experience in the industry. Gheit, also an engineer, knows how pipelines are repaired. "This isn't heart surgery. It's a plumber's job, child's play, finished in three days," he says. "The traders use every excuse in the book to drive up prices."

    As a young man, Gheit was still analyzing oil prices at $4 a barrel. The ritualized relationship between production volume and consumption, demand that has been growing for years in China, unrest in the Middle East or Nigeria, the threat of cold snaps -- none of this is enough to explain the current price explosion, says Gheit. In fact, he is convinced that speculators are completely responsible. "It's pure hysteria," he says.

    Other analysts agree. "The market is reacting to the fact that we might not have enough oil in the market 13 years from now -- excuse me?," says Edward Morse, chief energy economist at the investment bank Lehman Brothers. "You never recognize it's a bubble until the bubble is over." he says.

    Signs of unusual behavior abound across the commodities markets. Take cotton, for example. In late February, the price of cotton futures jumped by 50 percent within two weeks. But cotton farmers haven't even been able to sell half of their harvest from the previous year yet. Warehouses in the United States are fuller than they have been since 1966. Indeed, all signs point to a price decline.

    In a statement to the US Congress, the American Cotton Shippers' Association blames this "irrational" development on "speculators driving up prices." According to the trade group, cotton processors would never pay the fantasy prices being quoted on the commodities futures exchanges.

    Two worlds have developed. One is the world of the traders at hedge funds and investment companies, and the other is that of farmers, grain dealers and mine operators. They may be dealing in the same commodities -- barrels of oil or bales of cotton, for example -- but for some these are nothing but abstract concepts while others see them as down-to-earth products.

    The problems arise when these two worlds intersect, the fantasy world of speculators and the real economies of cotton processors and coffee roasters. It leads to distortions, like those currently affecting the cotton market.

  4. #4
    Lesbian Rebel Member Mikeus Caesar's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    You silly realists, shhh, you're ruining my dream of a perfect world - a world with fewer people, where you don't need qualifications to get somewhere. Just pure will and ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    I'm being assailed by a mental midget of ironically epic proportions. Quick as frozen molasses, this one. Sharp as a melted marble. It's disturbing. I've had conversations with a braying mule with more coherence.


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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Why worry now over the shortage of oil, when in truth we don't need to worry about it until 20 years from now.
    Maybe because it will take us more than 20 years to get our collective arse into gear
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Why do I keep thinking that stock markets are one of the worst inventions ever?

    You sell almost half of your company to a bunch of silly, easily-scared people because you are unable to make enough profit yourself and subsequently you have to release unfinished products, release wrong balances and do other stupid/illegal things to keep all those easily-scared shareholders happy because otherwise you go completely bankrupt like you should have in the first place.

    And now I hear these silly wusses are responsible for the 442EUR I had to pay in addition to my monthly heating costs even though it wasn't really warm at all in my flat during the whole winter!

    Don't shareholders ever read about how stupid shareholders do this or that in newspapers or are they just too stupid to realize these articles are talking about them?


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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Don't shareholders ever read about how stupid shareholders do this or that in newspapers or are they just too stupid to realize these articles are talking about them?
    The point is that one needs stupid shareholders to provide the money for clever shareholders to make profits.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane View Post
    I think it is a combination of scaremongers like the 14 or so that has answered positive to this poll , low dollar value and the unrest in Iran or Nigeria (yeah some fear that they won't produce as much as they have promised), that cause the price pr barrel to be as high as it is. I won't buy the reason about there being too little oil to go around.
    Dollars don't buy as much as it used to and since oil is nearly exclusively sold in dollars, the prices are high to cover the so-called losses.
    I liked your assessment of the current supply side of oil. It was very interesting.

    However, I am not a scaremonger being one of the now 15 who have answered "no" to the poll. I don't believe oil will ever be as cheap as say 50 dollars a barrel. While there may be plenty of oil to go around (I don't dispute this), much of it, like you have said, is unexplored. This comes at a time when global demand is exploding especially in third world countries such as China and India.

    I don't think we are doomed, but I don't think oil prices will ever be cheap again. There is a lot of money left to made on the exploration and production of new crude.



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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    EDIT: Tragically, the way our world is, the way people don't act until the last minute because they dislike leaving their comfort zone, the tendency for governments to not play well together, option B is the most likely cause of action. The best we can hope for is a mixture of B and A, where first world countries save themselves at the last second due to numerous breakthrough technologies, but third world countries, unable to afford these new technologies, fall apart and suffer massive population die-offs due to starvation on a scale never seen before.


    The free market works in our favor though. SUV sales have collapsed, and small, effecient cars are in.

    When did this big oil scare start? Last summer? The families of Toyota, Honda, Ford, and GM (I may be missing some) already have workable hybrids on the lots. Not just weird Prius types, but hybrids in their normal cars aswell. Honda just introduced the first hydrogen powered car, and the German motor groups have some big plans up their sleeves as well. Congress and other governments are already giving millions to the automakers for fuel saving techs to make up for the ever increasing fuel economy standards they are imposing.

    Sure these aren't perfect solutions, but thats not how technology works. Its a progression. In a relatively short time, the market has responded to changing demnad with vehicles getting double and triple the milage that was standard in the past.

    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

  10. #10

    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    now thats a turn up , the free market works and the benefits of millions in government subsidies all in one reply .
    Well done Panzer

  11. #11
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Doesn't stop our governherd from raising taxes over gassoline anyway since today, for the trees and 26.000 other reasons.

    //hugs bike

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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    now thats a turn up , the free market works and the benefits of millions in government subsidies all in one reply .
    Well done Panzer
    You're really trying too hard...

  13. #13
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    End of the world? Hardly? As we know it? Perhaps...

    Were it that oil was the only solution available to us that could provide electrical power to run our industry, heat our homes and fuel our cars then I say hey, break out the tin foil hats, raggedy robes and hastily scribbled signs bearing apocalyptic slogans such as "The End is Nigh!"

    However the techno geek inside me is gleefully delighted that we now have the catalyst known as 'neccessity' inspiring the Mother of Invention to get off her lazy a$$ and fix us an alternative fuel laden ham sammich. Nuclear power, hydro power, wind power, solar power, hybrid powered cars, hydrogen fuel cells, etc., etc. It is wonderful to see the future back in vogue!

    Beyond this skyrocketing fuel prices will force more people to... wait for it... use their own self-generated horsepower for frivolous trips that previously saw people burning dead dinosaurs in the name of small errands and leisure activities (i.e. trips to the local store for a mere loaf of bread, container of milk and a stick of butter and those lovely Sunday drives to nowhere). Maybe this will force Americans and other westerners to dredge up those 'uncool' cost conscious and waste eliminating habits of pre-war generations.

    To be honest just moving the country off oil (especially the imported variety) for our electrical needs would be a huge step in the right direction. Relying on nuclear alone to bear the burden (arguably the quickest and most efficient means at our disposal) would have a much more profound impact than if everyone were to trade their conventional car in for a hybrid, electrical or hydrogen fuel cell model. Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the US use upwards of 70-75% of the oil it purchases to power its electrical grid... crazy, eh?

    It is quite frightening to see things coming to a head as they are... with inflation, the mortgage crisis, oil speculation driving fuel costs sky high and a Mount Everest sized debt looming over us. I honestly don't think we're in for a modest recession this time around. I firmly believe the current trend is leading to something much bigger than anyone cares to admit and that the ride is going to get a helluva lot bumpier. I don't think we're in for a depression sized pit of despair (I'm being cautiously optimistic) but the combined forces of the four factors I mentioned have created one killer pothole that is going to seriously screw up the suspension. We may have to trade this jalopy in for a new model... which is not neccessarily a bad thing.
    Last edited by Spino; 07-01-2008 at 22:29. Reason: Edited so that it actually makes sense...
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    Member Member Marius Dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Here is a question for you - What part will Nuclear Energy play in the future, particularly when Oil begins to run out?

    P.S. Bear in mind Nuclear Power has no Co2! Yay!!

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: $140+ per barrel - the end of the world as we know it?

    Scaremongers 0 - me 1 ...

    sorry for resurrecting this scaremonger...
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