Surprisingly good units

[QuintusSertorius]

This is a topic that's gotten a lot of mileage on TWC which I thought I'd bring here.

What this is decidedly not about are elite units, or any other expensive and effective ones. Like pedites extraordinarii or argryraspides or the various types of assault infantry out there.

This thread is dedicated to those regular, possibly even cheap units which are surprisingly effective given how uninspiring they may seem statistically.

My top pick are Celto-Hellenic Spearmen.



Available as mercs and hire-able for Gallic and Hellenic factions, they're cheap. Yet they're pretty much equal, stats-wise to Thureophoroi and seem much better at holding a line - even against phalanx units provided it isn't for too long. Get some experience on them and their morale becomes something terrible to behold. They're the mainstay of my battle line in my Pergamon game, and they never disappoint.

Next are Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, or Peltastai.



Again ridiculously cheap, available as mercs and recruitable by virtually anyone. Not only can they skirmish, but they make pretty reasonable medium infantry. Good armour and their sword has a high lethality (equal to a Roman gladius). Lots of javelins too and good stamina. They can hold your flanks, then move in to outflank, and still have the energy to chase down routers at the end of a battle.

The Thrakian variant are also not bad, slightly better armour and vicious AP swords, although they're not as skilled in melee.

Slingers. Bog-standard, basic slingers you get with many factions, whether Accensi, Sphendenotai or Iaosatae, they're all good.



Why? Cheap and effective against armour, meaning they cut through enemy skirmishers like nobody's business, and in the right position will even whittle down their elites or general. Get them some experience (easily done when they're killing hundreds a battle with their slings, then running down routing troops) and they become holy terrors. The Gallic variant are available as mercs to almost anyone too.

Curepos/Leuce Epos, the Gallic light cavalry.



These guys are brilliant. Available as mercs almost everywhere, and they're among the cheapest cavalry. Not only are they tireless, but they have AP lances. Meaning when you're done harrassing the enemy line, you can use them for shock charges to the rear. Don't leave them in melee, though, the slow attack time on a lance will get them slaughtered.

What units have other people discovered are very good, in spite of them being cheap and perhaps not so great on paper?

[Timoleon]

I couldn't agree more about peltasts, especially Thracians. They are the most versatile unit available IMHO.



Prodromoi cavalry are pure winners too. Their variant from Thrace are even better. They have great charge, armor piercing weapons, excellent morale and, most importantly, unmatched stamina.



Lately I've found that Ekdromoi Hoplitai are a surprisingly capable unit. They have the perfect balance between the Classical Hoplites' staying power and the mobility of Thureophoroi. They better than both in melee attack (of course Thureophoroi have javelins too), their defence is better than Thureophoroi and close to Classical Hoplites and they are 25% more numerous that both! Moreover they can be recruited in just level 2 native barracks. However they are a bit more expensive. I used them a lot to protect the flanks of the army and then outflank the enemy and chase the rooters.

[QuintusSertorius]

Definitely agree with you on the Prodromoi, I think they're better than heavy cavalry, myself. It's that speed, stamina and AP weapons combo that can't be beaten. Even in melee with other heavy cavalry they're survivable, largely because the AI is too stupid to switch to it's secondary weapon when it has a lance.

[Socy]

Dont have time nor energy () to upload a picture, but I find the Pantodapoi Phalangitai, if used correctly, to be almost as good as Pezhetaiori or Argyraspidai for holding lines whilst being alot cheaper! That is, flanks protected and supported by flankers etc. The Argyraspidai and Pezhetairoi are better though, but sometimes I question their cost vs their effectivity compared to Pantodapoi Phalangitai!

As you wrote QS, Celto-Hellenic Spearmen are awesome. Clearly one of my favoured troops considering price vs. effectivity. Peltastai aswell, pure gold. Even better are the Thracian I think, if not for anything else but for roleplay (Thracians = Original peltasts, if I'm not misstaken) Slingers are also damn lethal, simply love them. Considering the amount of damage they inflict on enemy arrmies compared to their price.. Well, they're godlike simply. Prodromoi are also ace! And I simply love the Thracian variant. Makes it able to field a Thracian army (With Makedonia/AS) including cavalry!

[machinor]

Persian Archer-Spearmen. Ideal garrison unit, good archer unit and quite capable spearmen unit if charged by skirmisher cavalry or horse archers. Easily the most versatile unit in the east and still really cheap. Gotta love 'em.

[QuintusSertorius]

Dont have time nor energy () to upload a picture, but I find the Pantodapoi Phalangitai, if used correctly, to be almost as good as Pezhetaiori or Argyraspidai for holding lines whilst being alot cheaper! That is, flanks protected and supported by flankers etc. The Argyraspidai and Pezhetairoi are better though, but sometimes I question their cost vs their effectivity compared to Pantodapoi Phalangitai!

As you wrote QS, Celto-Hellenic Spearmen are awesome. Clearly one of my favoured troops considering price vs. effectivity. Peltastai aswell, pure gold. Even better are the Thracian I think, if not for anything else but for roleplay (Thracians = Original peltasts, if I'm not misstaken) Slingers are also damn lethal, simply love them. Considering the amount of damage they inflict on enemy arrmies compared to their price.. Well, they're godlike simply. Prodromoi are also ace! And I simply love the Thracian variant. Makes it able to field a Thracian army (With Makedonia/AS) including cavalry!

I can oblige you there:



Having seen the havoc Swordmaster can wreak with them against all and sundry, I'm convinced with phalangites it's how you use them that really matters.

Another unit who qualify are the Classical Hoplites.



Everyone can recruit them, they don't cost much, and they'll hold a line - even against a phalanx - forever.

[Swordmaster]

Pantodapoi phalangitai for president. They've been indeed a hugely reliable unit, despite costing only 300-ish in upkeep. Plus, enormous AOR. If you can recruit them with one or two experience, you shouldn't bother recruiting Kleruchoi or Pezhetairoi (except for role-playing purposes) at all. The only negative thing I've noticed is that a head-on charge by heavy cavalry (kataphraktoi or hetairoi) can really throw the entire phalanx in chaos, which you won't have as easily with higher-ranking phalanx units. Of course, once the phalanx breaks, these levies are rubbish, and will run quickly.

Other units I think about now are:


Botroas

Playing a Celtic faction, these guys can save your kingdom. In the range of 300 mnai upkeep, they can get their strength from numbers. IIRC, the Bataroas aren't very different.


Iberian caetratii

For those playing in the western portions of the map, recruit these guys. They will eat up heavy infantry like you never thought was possible, as long as you don't have them outnumbered or surrounded.

[konny]

Cheap and flexible.



Even without missles, I found this one the best light cavalry for their price.



Kartvelebi Dashna-Mebrdzolebi (Georgian Swordsmen), just in case you don't know them. They are very early available what makes them the backbone of the early Armenian army.



Often underrated, but their high defense skill can make them a killer of enemy light infantry.



Clona Gosnasio (Northern Iberian Skirmisher) are an awesome unit to back up slingers and archers. When those have spent their missles, they might act as skirmishers or even light infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

Illyrian Hippeis are brilliant. They can shock charge again and again with those AP lances of theirs. Provided they're not alone, their axes are even good at taking out well-armoured cavalry.

[burn_again]

In my Sweboz and Aedui campaigns I use the baltic archers to great effect. They have 80 men, good range and you can use them as reserve spearmen if needed.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Eastern Axeman and Cappadocian Hillmen, also Cappadocian Spearmen. (Apart from the various flavours of archers the East has got to offer.)

In fact, the whole East seems to be full of surprisingly good units, and interesting possibilities for deploying them. Even Pantodapoi can be surpringsily good units.

EDIT: Also, Skutjanz & Sotaroas are actually pretty decent, and the various Belgae units are just awesome.

[Dutchhoplite]

Not the best troops but they surprised me when they defeated an attack from the Carthaginians:

[Tyrfingr]

Velites and Illyrian Cavalry, you got to worship them otherwise the velites will pepper you with javelins, charge your lines, hold you down until the Illyrians sneak up behind your backs and stick those AP-lances where the sun don't shine.

Illyrian coastal leavies are great too...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Skutjanz



They aren't that bad as archers, and once done with archering, they can plug gaps in your line with their spears, which can save the day for you. That many of them will die is rather unimportant since they are so cheap to replace.


Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi



I think they are just great. They are fast, can hurl their javelins a really long distance and are, most of all, apart-rippers of such godlike units like Thorakitai Argyraspides. You only have to keep them out of missile fire.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm not sure assault troops, who are by their very nature pretty good, qualify as "surprisingly" so.

[Havok.]

Combine this two cheap light infantary and you'll have a superb awesome fighting force, that can deal with basicly everything !

i love them!

[Fondor_Yards]

The Iabarannta are far better then I would have given them credit for. For whatever reason, whenever I let cavalry get in meele with them for more then 10 seconds, they start slaughtering them. Not just my Leuce Epos and Brihentin, but even my gold chevron Saka Cataphracts. Even when fighting my infantry they seem to do more damage then they should. I don't really remember fighting the Gaesamica, but since they have the exact same stats and model I'd image they just as strangely good.



I find these guys often more useful then my cataphracts in my Saka campaign. Very good heavy cavalry, just as useful as cataphracts since they are fast moving, hardy, and very good in meele against other cavalry. Catas often get exhausted after only a few charges, while these guys can keep going all battle long. I would have at least as many or more of them in my Indo-Greek armies then my Ysaninu Aysiramj. Plus look at that skin, they are dead sexy.

[Tyrfingr]

The rorarii might be discarded as crappy garrison units, but think again! The huge stack of javelins gives these guy an advantage to similar units, and because of the close formation, they can actually hold down enemies while you send in the flankers. Before the polybian reforms, the rorarii is great!

[Beefy187]

Dont have pictures but... Sardinian infantry! Fantastic for killing Numidian rebel armies as Carthage. I just love archer-spearmen

[Olaf The Great]

You know they would be good...



But not as good as they are.
They're main advantage is they're the ONLY unit that can have gold weapons, thats 17 attack right there(for the swords) and 22(17 for foot units 27 for cavalry) for the spears.
Also due to the temples to Tyr, they can get +3 to attack and defense.

So thats 30 attack vs cavalry fresh from the barracks, well able to destroy the western cavalry, and can destroy even the most powerful cataphracts.

They're also available as mercenaries for all factions.


I once used them in an town attack, the Gauls had 3 units of Teceitos, 2 units of Botroas, and 5 units of Lugae defending the gate.

I sent 3 units of the Hearthmen and they slaughtered the enemy force very quickly, suffering about 10 men(normal sized) to 220 gauls.

Afterwards the Gauls ran away, and gave me enough time to set up the battle line.

[johnhughthom]

The rorarii might be discarded as crappy garrison units, but think again! The huge stack of javelins gives these guy an advantage to similar units, and because of the close formation, they can actually hold down enemies while you send in the flankers. Before the polybian reforms, the rorarii is great!

Definately agree with this one, I played a lot of Romani campaigns and these guys never saw any action, just sat behind my almost as rarely used Triarii. It took an Epirote campaign where I fought against them for me to realise how useful they actually are, they see a lot of action in my current campaign.

[Arminius Germanicus]

indeed Olaf, the Hearthmen are my secret weapon in my Sweboz campaign.
they are my core shock troops and i hire every single unit of them i can find, send them straight to my capital to get them their gold weapons and 3 copper chevrons xp and away they go to the front.

they are the only units that can stand their own against all the gallic uber-soldiers and are most effective against the roman elite infantry.

currently, after countless battles and constant merging depletet units with fresh ones, i have 4 units of them on level 6 (3 silver chevrons) and they are true weapons of mass destruction that can easily bind multiple enemy units and give them a good beating without dying much!

on the other hand i just don´t see mto be able to get them over 3 silver chevrons, no matter how many enemys they kill. training up true elites is quite hard in this game, isn´t it?

Now, for another suprisingly good unit: the Jungthiz germanic skirmishers.

they are cheap, can practically run forever, have a good amount of javelins to harrass the enemy and once they are somewhat experienced and outfitted, they make up for an extremely versatile light to medium infantry. perfect for flanking the enemy lines and attacking from the rear after they have drawn away some units.

even cavalry cannot do them much harm as long as you keep them spread out and in skirmish mode. so they are ideal to bind the enemy cavalry and draw them far away from the main battle.

also, as defenders on walls they are quite able. they can give the advancing enemy some good pelting with javelins, then hold the walls against everything but heavy infantry long enough to tire them out and whittle them down. and they are easy and cheap to retrain and maintain.

also very useful to take care of careless enemy archers and slingers, especially if you can manage to get them behind the enemy lines where the archers tend to linger.

all in all they might be one of the best overall skirmishing units next to thrakian peltasts and one of the most versatile and valuable early units for the Sweboz.

[Justinian II]

Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi



I think they are just great. They are fast, can hurl their javelins a really long distance and are, most of all, apart-rippers of such godlike units like Thorakitai Argyraspides. You only have to keep them out of missile fire.

I don't think I've ever seen these guys; who gets them and where?

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't think I've ever seen these guys; who gets them and where?

Makedonia and Epeiros in Pella, Tylis and Demetrias. Need a L4 factional barracks for them.

[Cadwalader]

Perhaps not that surprising, but I think most iberian units are brutal. That's why taking Iberia's been like shoving meat into a grinder in my Karthadast campaign. I can't wait to get them myself.

[QuintusSertorius]

Perhaps not that surprising, but I think most iberian units are brutal. That's why taking Iberia's been like shoving meat into a grinder in my Karthadast campaign. I can't wait to get them myself.

If anything, Qarthadast's Iberian roster is better than the Lusotanni's.

[Ludens]

Makedonia and Epeiros in Pella, Tylis and Demetrias. Need a L4 factional barracks for them.

Minor correction: they are available in Pella, Tylis and Serdike, not Demetrias.

[Tristuskhan]

The only way I'm able to judge an unit "surprisingly good" is when I have problems breaking it...

For me the grand-champions are African Elite Pikemen. IA Karth-Hadasht fields huge numbers of them and when playing Ptollies I often see them inflicting huge losses to my Agema Klerouchon (attacking from the front) and Tindanotae (attacking from the rear). Tough nuts to crack...

[QuintusSertorius]

The only way I'm able to judge an unit "surprisingly good" is when I have problems breaking it...

For me the grand-champions are African Elite Pikemen. IA Karth-Hadasht fields huge numbers of them and when playing Ptollies I often see them inflicting huge losses to my Agema Klerouchon (attacking from the front) and Tindanotae (attacking from the rear). Tough nuts to crack...

They're elites; they don't really qualify as "surprisingly" so because they're supposed to be that good. That's why they're expensive and have high stats.

[Irishmafia2020]

Ethiopian Spearmen and Arabian light archer/spearmen are both surprisingly good units on the Sabyn or regional roster. The Ethiopians are cheap, but fast moving, and amongst the best light infantry that I have played with. The Archer spearmen do double duty, and they are slightly better than the Persian variant.

Baktrian Hippies - probably the best medium cavalry in the game... they hit like light cataphracts in a charge, and they don't wear out as quickly.

Indo Hellenic Medium Skirmishers - specialized elephant killers who double as Thureophoroi in a pinch... not bad for the cheapest Indo-Greek unit! Indian Longbowman and Infantry guild warriors are also amazing regionals...

Equites Campanici - Campanian Cavalry, not bad for western regional cavalry. I certainly expected them to be garbage, not even equal to the successor cavalry. Actually they are a decent light cav, and my units of them tend to maintain their combat effectiveness (less than 50% casualties) through multiple battles. They have a weak charge, but are a good melee unit...

Indo-Iranian light cavalry - wow... a "light Cavalry" with a charge value of 32, and a melee value of 9. Plus they have high morale... These guys are the best light cavalry in the game... Just imagine what they could do if you got them out west...

Subeshi Archers - the infantry general's answer to those pesky horse archers. Seriously, they outrange HA's and have a high lethality, plus they are cheap and available from a level 1 regional barracks.... just make sure that they stand behind some spear men.

Peltastai - ummm.... I am embarrassed to say that i never really used these guys to their full potential. In all of my campaigns, I thought that they were basically useless, and irrelevant to the battle line. Only after reading about how great they are in other people's campaigns did I ever try to use them. Now I am a believer. For me, these are surprisingly good units - easily the equal of the archer-spearmen of the east.