Surprisingly bad units

[konny]

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.



Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?



Here are some that did not impress me very much:



Both might have their use when closing in on the enemy - but that would require a battlefield free of any missle units, including javelins.



Useful with long pikes and phalanx ability; without it absolutly pathetic. Always hire classical Hoplites or real Thorakitai instead.



Way to weak for their price.



The best looking mounted bodyguard ingame, but no match for their Parthian or Saka counterparts.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?

I've never used them, so I'm not sure what people were doing with them to say that.

I did see the AI use them to force a bridge crossing (all good so far), but then charge my front line of spearmen (dumb).

I agree with you on Drapanai - scary if they can get into melee, but hit them at range and they drop like flies.

[Tellos Athenaios]

With the exception of Ridanz (Curepos much better bang for the bucks, especially in a spear-heavy enviroment -- and both aren't elite anyways), I get to chuckle every time I see such thread. What it is you guys do to you troops I don't know; but there is something called playing to strengths.

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

Elephants can be very useful; it's a matter of timing mostly. A unit which is able to quickly decide a drawn-out fight on the flanks is always useful -- I've had units of the simpler elephant types crash into my own infantry at times (custom battles). For comparison: a unit of Triballoi was reduced within seconds to a mere 75 men on hughe, which is something not even heavy AP infantry can do.

[konny]

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

The difference between Iphikratians and Germanic pikemen is that the Sweboz variant is the only decently armoured unit for a reasonable price available to this faction. That makes them so important. The Greeks have Thureophoroi, Classical Hoplites and Thorakitai that can do anything the non-phalanx Iphikratians can do, and a lot more. That is, a unit of Iphikratians against Classicals will be killed in 9 out of 10 time, the same goes for Thorakitai Phalanx vs. Thorakitai Spearmen.

No, I can't see any reason recruiting them without phalanx mode. A weaker underhand spearmen formation is definitly not needed for the Greeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Which is what you use Doryphoroi for. Not overly expensive troops, big shields, javelins and reasonable morale for their cost. The Falxmen shoud enjoy the protection of the Doryphoroi, and when it gets to melee it should be the other way around.

[Tyrfingr]

The scythed chariots blows big time, but then again, that is no surprise...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

[QuintusSertorius]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

I only ever charge my cavalry into the back of engaged, and tired infantry. I don't leave them in melee either. I know how to use cavalry, I get great results doing exactly that with "light" cavalry like Curepos or Illyrian Hippeis as well as mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi. They don't get tired after a couple of charges as those useless Thessalians do.

Thrakian Prodromoi are simply better value for money, and indeed better units. Lance-wise, they're identical. Thrakians have a point better sword skill, and theirs have a higher lethality. They have a point worse defense skill and armour than the Thessalians and their morale isn't as good. But the real killer is that they have ridiculously good stamina, and can full-charge again and again. None of that lumbering tired charge that hardly does anything after your second time.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

Not my personal claim, I've never used them.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

They're no good at holding a line, and make reasonable flankers. Except the best flankers are swordsmen, for getting into enemy spearmen. Peltastai are a better medium infantry bet, unless you also want to cover against enemy cavalry.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.



Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.



Thraikioi Hippeis



They have their uses, for sure, but unfortunately not in an army that is reduced to 20. The same goes for any skirmischer cavalry, except early game when you don't have anything better.



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

[jhhowell]

Not sure I'd say "bad" per se, but definitely not worth the money - Armenian cataphracts (can probably generalize to Parthians as well). They're very capable, but very expensive. And the key point is that the cataphract horse archers are available one MIC level lower, for less money, and equal charging ability. The pure cataphracts just get you a melee weapon (IIRC armor is the same, at least for Hayasdan). Add to that the widespread availability of Kinsmen who are the best non-cataphract heavy cav in the game, plenty good enough to form the cavalry wing of an eastern army, with a cost around 60% of cataphracts. Not much point other than eye candy/flavor/RP to pay for the expensive pure cataphracts.

Relatedly, the Armenian Noble Infantry. Same stats as veteran Shipri Tukul (3 chevrons, IIRC), with less convenient recruiting cities and higher cost. And the ST can be recruited as mercenaries for extra convenience.

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry - by the time the player can get these, Hayasdan will almost certainly control at least one of Kotais or Mtsheta (or however you spell that one). The latter both allow Scythian horse archers from a regional MIC1, which means all jav-cav in the realm are obsolete. A similar argument can be made against the Dahae jav-cav further east.

Velites - unless they've gotten a lethality upgrade on their melee weapon since I last looked at them, they're just understrength leves/akontistai with a couple more points of armor. Leves/akontistai are the way to go for javelin-tossing, Peltasts can fight well in melee, last I checked Velites were mediocre to poor in both roles.

[The General]

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.

I agree with this.

[konny]

Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

[NeoSpartan]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

[Che Roriniho]

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

[teh1337tim]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
what i recommend with these is to use them as medium spearmen/infantry since they WILL switch to swords on contact but actaully quite decent against calvalry, just make sure u got some hoplitai of some sort

[Tollheit]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds

Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

[Che Roriniho]

Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

How did you do this?

[Tollheit]

First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.

[Che Roriniho]

First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.

Ok, ta.

[konny]

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

Historicaly they used longer spears than the Hoplites, what would be the short_pike. Unfortuantly this one happenes to be shorter than the light_spear the Hoplites use in EB. There are some ways to make them a bit more usefull:

- Give them the phalanx ability and the long_pike and make them a unit like the Makedonian phalanx. That wouldn't be historical correct because the Maks actually used a spear even longer than that of the Iphikratians.

- Give them the same stats as Peltasts in armour and defense (in fact they are Peltasts armed with spears instead of javelins), keep the upkeep to that of the Hoplites but raise the number of men per unit Iphikratians to 200 instead of 160 to represent them being better available than classical Hoplites (Iphikratians would be mercenaries, while Hoplites would be middle-class militia). A "modern" Greek army would then be lots of Iphikratians with some Peltasts, no Hoplites.

[Dumbass]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

Also Gaeroas are terrible.

[Rodrico Stak]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

I don't agree with that. I used Bruttian Infantry extensively to fight rebels as the Romani (built a level 4 government in Taras), and they did more damage than the Hoplitai who were part of the same army.