Surprisingly bad units

[konny]

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

The difference between Iphikratians and Germanic pikemen is that the Sweboz variant is the only decently armoured unit for a reasonable price available to this faction. That makes them so important. The Greeks have Thureophoroi, Classical Hoplites and Thorakitai that can do anything the non-phalanx Iphikratians can do, and a lot more. That is, a unit of Iphikratians against Classicals will be killed in 9 out of 10 time, the same goes for Thorakitai Phalanx vs. Thorakitai Spearmen.

No, I can't see any reason recruiting them without phalanx mode. A weaker underhand spearmen formation is definitly not needed for the Greeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Which is what you use Doryphoroi for. Not overly expensive troops, big shields, javelins and reasonable morale for their cost. The Falxmen shoud enjoy the protection of the Doryphoroi, and when it gets to melee it should be the other way around.

[Tyrfingr]

The scythed chariots blows big time, but then again, that is no surprise...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

[QuintusSertorius]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

I only ever charge my cavalry into the back of engaged, and tired infantry. I don't leave them in melee either. I know how to use cavalry, I get great results doing exactly that with "light" cavalry like Curepos or Illyrian Hippeis as well as mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi. They don't get tired after a couple of charges as those useless Thessalians do.

Thrakian Prodromoi are simply better value for money, and indeed better units. Lance-wise, they're identical. Thrakians have a point better sword skill, and theirs have a higher lethality. They have a point worse defense skill and armour than the Thessalians and their morale isn't as good. But the real killer is that they have ridiculously good stamina, and can full-charge again and again. None of that lumbering tired charge that hardly does anything after your second time.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

Not my personal claim, I've never used them.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

They're no good at holding a line, and make reasonable flankers. Except the best flankers are swordsmen, for getting into enemy spearmen. Peltastai are a better medium infantry bet, unless you also want to cover against enemy cavalry.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.



Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.



Thraikioi Hippeis



They have their uses, for sure, but unfortunately not in an army that is reduced to 20. The same goes for any skirmischer cavalry, except early game when you don't have anything better.



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

[jhhowell]

Not sure I'd say "bad" per se, but definitely not worth the money - Armenian cataphracts (can probably generalize to Parthians as well). They're very capable, but very expensive. And the key point is that the cataphract horse archers are available one MIC level lower, for less money, and equal charging ability. The pure cataphracts just get you a melee weapon (IIRC armor is the same, at least for Hayasdan). Add to that the widespread availability of Kinsmen who are the best non-cataphract heavy cav in the game, plenty good enough to form the cavalry wing of an eastern army, with a cost around 60% of cataphracts. Not much point other than eye candy/flavor/RP to pay for the expensive pure cataphracts.

Relatedly, the Armenian Noble Infantry. Same stats as veteran Shipri Tukul (3 chevrons, IIRC), with less convenient recruiting cities and higher cost. And the ST can be recruited as mercenaries for extra convenience.

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry - by the time the player can get these, Hayasdan will almost certainly control at least one of Kotais or Mtsheta (or however you spell that one). The latter both allow Scythian horse archers from a regional MIC1, which means all jav-cav in the realm are obsolete. A similar argument can be made against the Dahae jav-cav further east.

Velites - unless they've gotten a lethality upgrade on their melee weapon since I last looked at them, they're just understrength leves/akontistai with a couple more points of armor. Leves/akontistai are the way to go for javelin-tossing, Peltasts can fight well in melee, last I checked Velites were mediocre to poor in both roles.

[The General]

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.

I agree with this.

[Fondor_Yards]

Hoplitai Indohellenikoi are garbage. They can't even hold the line against other light and medium infantry, and have trouble fighting even light cavalry. Everyone who can recruit them can also get far more useful infantry instead, with a better recruitment area too, so I see zero need to ever include them in an army.

[Chirurgeon]

I agree with this.

You have got to be joking. Have you read my Lusitann AAR? These guys completely obliterate everything on the battlefield. Their charge is incredible. It is the only reason I have won battles against Kart-Hadast. I charged them down a hill into a unit of kart-Hadast Bodyguards and they killed everyone in the charge! I have used them to bulldoze the rear of a unit trying to flank my main battle line. My real pride is slamming into the rear of some elite African Pikemen, causing them to route. I say all this but there is a word of warning. Do not use them to pursue fleeing enemies. You also have to give them time to rest between charges. You can't just move them all over the place. You have to use their incredible weight and momentum appropriately. Even if the first charge does not cause a rout the second or third is guaranteed to. There is nothing I have encountered in the Western part of the map that even comes close. I mix some medium cavalry with them so that when the enemy flees I send the med cav after the broken enemy and rest my brutes for another go at the enemies ass

[konny]

Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

[Swordmaster]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

[LorDBulA]

Surprisingly bad units

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Dropanai: This guys are awsome.
Sure they are missing armour and shield but are butchers at meal and are dirty cheep. Can butcher much more expensive and much heavier opponents.
They do die like flies under misile fire but this is not unexpected or suprising. They have no armour or shield for crying out loud.

Elephants:
This is unit of extremes. Either they will crush enemy army in no time all will fail miserebly. There is no middle ground with this unit.
I once as Epeirote conquared whole Sicily and Itally with single army with 1 unit of unarmourd elephants. Fought 4 or 5 huge battles and each time my casualties where between 1-3%.
This was only thanks to elephants, normally fighting romans in itally I was suffering 15-50% casualties.
With Elephants I didnt have to reinforce my main army (other then organising garissons for captures cities ) through whole campaign. This is huge bang for the buck if you take into account short campaign time (saves many on upkeep ), much smaller loses (saves money both on training of new troops and upkeep while you transport them to front ).
Of course elephants are not type of unit that you keep in your army all the time. You train them for specific campaign and after you destroyed enemy full stacks and there is no huge formations to fight anymore disbands at once.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

[Irishmafia2020]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

tell me about it... those armored elephants cost a fortune, but having faced them myself, I can attest that normal skirmishers will not do the usual trick against them. On the same subject, I lost several crushing defeats against Pyrrhos at the beginning of my current KH campaign because he kept flanking me out the forest with the elephants. When I finally killed the bastards in a bad loss (for me -I rarely lose) I thought that it was worthwhile trade. I sent a spy to Pyrrhos' army and the elephants had all completely healed from the battle... He had a full complement! Bad enough that they can be unkillable, but worse that they are resurrected from the dead!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

That's quite true.

After all I think there are no "bad" units, every unit has its use. Every unit mentioned in my previous post I have readily employed in my respective campaigns so far as Carthage or Makedonia. EB is best played role-played. One shouldn't go purely after stats and upkeep.

[QuintusSertorius]

Roleplaying is precisely why I do use Thureophoroi, in spite of not thinking they're brilliant.

[NeoSpartan]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

[Fondor_Yards]

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

The reason I see most people not liking Brihentin is because they think they will be elite heavy cavalry like their description says, use them like that and are disappointed. But look at their stats, and they are more like very heavy medium cavalry*if there is such a thing*. Think of them and use them like you would medium cavalry, and you won't be disappointed *at least I'm not.* Also he said they were "a bit underpowered," not that they sucked.

Truth be told, the late Makedonian FMs are tanks.

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

Yea, they kinda are shock cavalry, their job in battle is/was to charge the enemy's flank to route them. If that's not shock cavalry I don't know what is. And how is that last line helpful in the least?



Also to Centurio Nixalsverdrus: Yes Epeiros can recruit them too.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.

In that case, Makedonian ones are easily beaten if you've got reasonably well-armoured, sword-armed cavalry. Because I've managed that one time and again with the much lighter Epirote bodyguard. Course having a lance-armed unit who can charge in and out of the melee while the sword-cavalry pin them in place helps, too. Generally though, I let them whittle their numbers down charging pointlessly against my lines first.