Surprisingly bad units

[QuintusSertorius]

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

Ah I think 'role they're designed for' might be a bit subject to personal playing styles. To me I use *no* cavalry whatsoever to repeatedly charge whatever unit; unless I am feeling otherwise really confident about it.

Instead I use my cavalry to:
1) Dispatch enemy cavalry with (one point to the Thessalians or Brihentin for that matter)
2) Dispatch lighter enemy missile troops: no point in attacking guys with pointy sticks...
3) Quickly push back some enemy units which are getting a bit too succesful for my liking You'd be amazed at what a full charge focused on the corner or a small gap of a unit can do when that unit is already in full melee.
4) Destroy routing units
5) Break shaken or wavering units; or at least speed up the process.
6) Break enemy bodyguards. Heavy cavalry with kopeis? Hell, yeah!

Seriously: units of Thessalian heavy cavalry tend to be extremly valuable when dealing with an endless steam of Ptolemaioi bodyguard cavalry... Especially if you can't afford or can't get your hands on anything better (Kinsmen or better yet, Hetairoi).
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Also someone mentioned Scythed Chariots as being bad? What has he/she been doing to those?! Best thing to break those annoying 'surprisingly good units' the enemy AI tends to field -- I mean Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai and the like. Very useful against a lot of cavalry also.

[QuintusSertorius]

I use cavalry for the following tasks:
1) Keep other cavalry away from my skirmishers
2) Keep other cavalry away from the flanks or rear of my line troops
3) [With light cavalry] Roam about behind the enemy front line, messing with their morale and firing missiles into their backs
4) [With fast mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi] Hunt down the enemy general*
5) Whittle down numbers and reduce the morale of already engaged enemy infantry, by charging to their rear at full pelt; pull out once contact is made, repeat and rinse
6) Drive off, or even kill enemy skirmishers - especially their slingers
7) [For horse-archers] Push enemy horse archers away from effective range on my infantry, especially my slingers
8) Kill routing enemies

Number 5) is the main one I use any heavies for, once the entire enemy force is engaged fighting someone and so they can't throw infantry in the way of a charge before it reaches full speed and levelled lances. I don't leave them engaged in melee, but pull them out again if the unit hasn't broken, retreat to charging distance and go again. Units like Curepos are brilliant at this once you've used up all your javelins, they have AP lances so get a lot of kills. Because of their stamina, they can do it repeatedly too. Sure you lose two or three of them each time, but it's worth it for the result.

Indeed often just having your cavalry moving around behind the enemy will start pushing their morale in the direction of routing.

Now I didn't list dispatch enemy cavalry because often they'll come to me, and my infantry can kill them with much fewer losses. Or better yet, while they're pinned fighting my infantry in melee, I can charge them. In a recent battle I killed some of those Hellenic Cataphracts that way, they charged the Thrakian Peltasts guarding my left flank, so an FM and unit of Curepos swept out wide then charged in on them. They lost almost half their number in the first charge, and leaving the FM melee-ing with them, I pulled the Curepos out and charged again. Kataphraktoi broke, game over heavy cavalry.

*Though this is often unnecessary since he suicide-charges my front line most of the time

[Irishmafia2020]

Peltastai Makedonikai - A very good unit! I love this unit and I will defend their prowess. They have won a number of battles for me against elite non-phalanx infantry and cavalry.

Thueroperoi (spelling) - their role is to be cheap, but capable soldiers, like the Hastati of Rome. Expect them to take causalities, but if they die, at least they are cheap to replace. If that is not your attitude, then this unit is very disappointing (I certainly was initially).

Successor Medium Cavalry- like Thueroperoi on horserback. Cheap and die like flies, but widely recruitable - Any other expectation will lead to disappointment.

Thessalian Heavy Cav - I agree that they are not fantastic. I tend to recruit Greek Noble Cavalry instead if I have the local option. They suffer too many causalities in contrast to Companion Cav. You might be better off throwing away Successor medium units than investing in Thessalian. On the other hand, in the west (against Rome, Greece) they are pretty strong.

My disappointing units -

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry - Virtually useless - upgrade your MIC and get the riders instead.

Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

Spartiates - Solid killers, but they are expensive, and you have to have a level 5 MIC in Sparta to get them. In contrast, the Level 4 elite hoplites (I forget their name) that you get from the other Greek cities are simply better. That is what makes the Spartans (slightly) disappointing.

Galatian Wild men - Like the Spartans, they are disappointing only when compared to their peers. The Geseatae (spelling) are more powerful and have better morale. I was disappointed that the Galatians were not their equal.

East Coast Levies - From Arabia - they seem to match their opponents in stats, but their morale is so low that their inevitable rout after suffering 5% casualties will probably take the rest of your army with them. Use these guys for Garrison duty where they will have to fight to the death. Never take them on an offensive campaign.

Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Those are some controversial choices for "bad" units, but relative to my expectations of their capabilities, I found each of these units to be disappointing.

[Beefy187]

How can you not like the Spartiates? They're Spartans!!

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

[Havok.]

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

don' like catapults either, they be vereh ugly indeed, i like more the vanilla catapults, but hey, i wont argue with the EB team for that

[Tellos Athenaios]

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.

Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.

Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".

Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Haven't used those guys much, can't say much there.

[Irishmafia2020]

The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.

I stand corrected. When I closely inspected the unit documentation, I saw that the Median cav have 1 point more in defensive skill and 1 point more in morale, making them slightly better than the Asian medium cav.

They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.

Yes I agree that this unit is actually a good, useful unit rather than "surprisingly bad". I placed it on my list only because i think that their cost is high. I use this unit myself, and they are able to do double duty as a tough melee medium cavalry as well as being horse archers with staying power. My comment is based upon a campaign in which i would recruit a lot of Dahae riders because they are cheap and effective. It was much more cost effective to use the riders, which made the Baktrian HA's much less useful than they should have been in my mind.

The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".

Good explanation. If the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are supposed to be the better cav unit, then I was not making a fair comparison. I was just so excited to capture Rhegion and build up my barracks so that I would have exclusive access to an "elite" western cavalry unit, when they turned out be just decent rather than truly bad@ss, I was disappointed. That is why i put them on my list.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

As Getai I have a nice way of protecting drapnai until I can make enough money to recruit Dacian phalanxes into my field armies. I have groups of horse-archers raid enemy stacks and destroy missile units. The enemy usually never replaces them.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

[Irishmafia2020]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

The wild men have 1 less defense, and 2 less morale than the Gaesetae... the difference is not very much, and they are both complete bad @sses, but I was disappointed when I found out that the Galatians were slightly weaker, hence the above post...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Threads like this make me smile.